Stanley Cup Final: Vegas Golden Knights vs Florida Panthers

[Invictus]

But this also already happens with trade deadline acquisitions where a deep team gets a star but only has to use his cap hit for the quarter season remaining, thus a $8m player is a $2m cap hit... That was more or less intended by the cap rules, the LTIR maybe was not....

The other option would be for the NHL to impose a "playoff cap" which would likely be higher than the regular season cap. But could result in a team not being able to ice its ideal lineup in the playoffs. That does not seem like a result the fans would want and thus the NHL would not want it either.
If there was a "playoff cap" it would need to be significantly higher than the regular season cap, otherwise trade deadline acquisitions for contenders would cease to be possible.

Playoff cap doesn't need to be higher - can be the same. Deadline acquisitions cap hit could just be the pro rated amount that the team gets hit with during the remainder of the regular season.

I'm not sure why Cup contending teams don't try and keep a bit of cap space for deadline acquisitions. Using your example of 8m player pro rated to a 2m cap hit: Leaving just 4m in cap space would be enough to acquire two 8m players - that would be a huge boost! Yes, there is a small risk, but the PROS outweigh the CONS imo - and that's what I would be doing. Imma phone Dubas up right now! See about a job.

I am still not sure that there is a problem which needs fixing and/or that the fix will not be worse than the current problem.
If the NHL had a playoff cap and Stone was not able to play in the playoffs, or Vegas had to ice a lesser team I do not think that is a better outcome for the league than what currently exists.

They would have to sit some players (likely not Stone), but the system would be more fair for everyone. I think there would be growing pains, but after a few times fans would become educated and understand. The LTIR relief would then work more as intended - to help teams stay strong, when injuries hit them, to get into the playoffs, but won't give them a big advantage during the playoffs.
While yes certain players may have to 'sit', others will get to play. It would still benefit the team as they would have better depth waiting ( say Stone goes down in the playoffs they would still have the players that helped get them to the playoffs waiting as healthy scratches).

[Pengwin7]

Agree with all points on LTIR.

But...
For me, the irk is that the new GM system seems to be that you need to be set-up in the pre-season to activate LTIR. (13 of 32 NHL teams set themselves that way, by luck or by plan, this past year. Vegas being #1.)
[If I understand it right, a team/GM has to have some numbers luck to go to LTIR in the middle of a season and maximize the situation. It's hard to do when you start playing by the base cap.]
If you can set-up your initial team to maximize LTIR at near the cap (the $82.5m-ish max, once the injured players are subtracted)... then you have an OPTIONAL cap play that a non-LTIR team doesn't have.

So the trend, is more&more teams/GMs seem to be wanting to have the LTIR player on roster to start season.
And not just the LTIR situation... but a big-mammoth LTIR situation, high $$$ player, out ALL year, that ensures your team never comes "out" of LTIR when one of the players is "healthy".
Such was Vegas the past year with Weber, Patrick, Lehner. Even if Lehner came back, they're still LTIR with Weber/Patrick.
I don't love this.
I wouldn't say this is an "all teams can do this" sort of function.
There's probably 8-15 high-contract LTIR players at any given time, so maybe half-the-league has a shot at these players.

[Maybe somebody has the numbers, but I'd bet teams that enter LTIR at start of season has been on rise over past 5-10 years.]

The current LTIR seems to favor any team that has a major $$$ LTIR contract.
They have flexibility to have more guys go down on LTIR... they can patch in... get to playoffs... and roster an insanely high playoff cap.

For me, the NHL just needs to institute a playoff cap.
I'll be shocked if the NHL doesn't do something about this.
It reminds me of the trickle-off final contract years that so many stars had back in the early 2000s... and the NHL eventually right that.

[Invictus]

Idk... The NHL put it to a vote about 'doing something about it'. All but two teams voted that it was fine.
I don't really believe the NHL will change anything or have incentive to do so. Nor will the players be pressuring them to change it.
At least not in the near future.
Guess I can say I'll be shocked if the NHL does do something about this. Hope that I'm wrong and you are right.

[LawMan]

Playoff cap doesn't need to be higher - can be the same. Deadline acquisitions cap hit could just be the pro rated amount that the team gets hit with during the remainder of the regular season.

I'm not sure why Cup contending teams don't try and keep a bit of cap space for deadline acquisitions. Using your example of 8m player pro rated to a 2m cap hit: Leaving just 4m in cap space would be enough to acquire two 8m players - that would be a huge boost! Yes, there is a small risk, but the PROS outweigh the CONS imo - and that's what I would be doing. Imma phone Dubas up right now! See about a job.

Teams absolutely do, do this, to a point where contenders near the cap know, to the day, how much a star acquisition will cost at trade deadline. The Oiler specifically waited until the last possible moment to acquire Ekholm this season, and had like $300 in cap space to spare.

Again, the cap is based on regular season so getting an $8m player for 25% of the regular season only costs $2m. What is the difference between an $8mil only being on your teams roster (via trade) for 25% or only being on the roster (due to injury) for 25%. In both cases, the team you ice for Game 1 of the playoffs is over the NHL cap, but you want to give relief for the traded player, but not the injured player.

They would have to sit some players (likely not Stone), but the system would be more fair for everyone. I think there would be growing pains, but after a few times fans would become educated and understand. The LTIR relief would then work more as intended - to help teams stay strong, when injuries hit them, to get into the playoffs, but won't give them a big advantage during the playoffs.
While yes certain players may have to 'sit', others will get to play. It would still benefit the team as they would have better depth waiting ( say Stone goes down in the playoffs they would still have the players that helped get them to the playoffs waiting as healthy scratches).

“Fair” is open for interpretation. A playoff cap would mean teams potential not icing their best possible roster. Stone would play but the bottom-6 or 2 would be lesser, not the best possible lineup. That is not good for the fans IMO.

[Axeman33]

I think the biggest complaint most people have with LTIR and playoff teams is watching a guy return healthy on game one of the playoffs. It's clear that they were holding him out of the regular season even though he "could" have returned earlier than game one but couldn't because his cap space was already eaten up.

Tell me Mark Stone couldn't have played game 80-82 of the regular season had Vegas had the cap space. Sure he could have. That to me is the issue people have with ordeal.

[Daydream Nation]

I think the biggest complaint most people have with LTIR and playoff teams is watching a guy return healthy on game one of the playoffs. It's clear that they were holding him out of the regular season even though he "could" have returned earlier than game one but couldn't because his cap space was already eaten up.

Tell me Mark Stone couldn't have played game 80-82 of the regular season had Vegas had the cap space. Sure he could have. That to me is the issue people have with ordeal.

100% This is the issue I have with it. Does anyone wonder if Stone or Kucherov could have come back before the start of the playoffs? They were incentivized to "rehab" till game 1 of the playoffs so their team could deepen their playoff roster. So now injury and/or surgery timing impacts the quality of the playoff roster a team can build. Would you set up your dynasty rules that way?

[Invictus]

Teams absolutely do, do this, to a point where contenders near the cap know, to the day, how much a star acquisition will cost at trade deadline. The Oiler specifically waited until the last possible moment to acquire Ekholm this season, and had like $300 in cap space to spare.

Again, the cap is based on regular season so getting an $8m player for 25% of the regular season only costs $2m. What is the difference between an $8mil only being on your teams roster (via trade) for 25% or only being on the roster (due to injury) for 25%. In both cases, the team you ice for Game 1 of the playoffs is over the NHL cap, but you want to give relief for the traded player, but not the injured player.

“Fair” is open for interpretation. A playoff cap would mean teams potential not icing their best possible roster. Stone would play but the bottom-6 or 2 would be lesser, not the best possible lineup. That is not good for the fans IMO.

I would take a guess they started the season near max cap and the space was accrued throughout the season from players going on LTIR?

What I was saying is purposely starting the season several million (in the example I used 4m) in cap space available to reserve for deadline acquisitions. Effectively trading a 4m player to have all season for two 8m players for end of season and playoffs. I would happily make that tradeoff. I don't see teams doing this. Of course it's risky as you have to have assets to make the trades and find the trade partners...

I think having an equal playing ground would be better for the fans than currently. Players are already sitting, it would essentially be the same thing.

[rataylor22]

This “could they come back sooner thing” is ridiculous. Players play through shit in the playoffs all the time that they don’t play through in the regular season. Tkachuk played a game with a broken sternum. Stone had 2 back surgeries in 8 months. He didn’t do that just so Vegas could get some cap relief. Any whining about this is truly just sour grapes and absolutely nothing else.

[random-d]

... Any whining about this is truly just sour grapes and absolutely nothing else.

This reads like: My word is law and I'm invalidating any opinions to the contrary.

I don't see anything wrong with the thus far civil discussion on the issue.