Dubas will not return as Leafs GM

[2014olympicgold]

That's really interesting, thanks for posting it!

Even then, however, it seems to me that that delineation has the potential to be really messy I think if things don't go as hoped in terms of team success.

I mean, where do you draw the line between the signings, trades, drafts that the GM is responsible for being lousy vs. the "the strategic direction for all aspects of the hockey operations" that the team President is responsible for being the root of the problem and informing what type of player to draft, sign, etc.? In some truly disastrous scenarios, it may be obvious. But in other situations, it most likely won't be.

For instance, if we assume this is roughly how the Leafs envision the roles, is the failure the singings, trades and draft picks or the strategic direction for all aspects of the hockey operations, including revolving around a "big 4" of offensive players and filling in other pieces as needed?

I think you as a President can say "this is what we want" and if the GM fails to deliver, a President can sit back and tell his bosses "the guy I had couldn't do it." and pull the trigger on getting a new guy. But a President can only say it's the GMs fault so many times before the overall vision the President has is the problem.

It's like coaches and GMs. A GM can fire a coach, but at what point is it the GM? Same goes up the ladder.

[Feenom]

I think you as a President can say "this is what we want" and if the GM fails to deliver, a President can sit back and tell his bosses "the guy I had couldn't do it." and pull the trigger on getting a new guy. But a President can only say it's the GMs fault so many times before the overall vision the President has is the problem.

It's like coaches and GMs. A GM can fire a coach, but at what point is it the GM? Same goes up the ladder.

Yes, I believe Shanny is using his get out of jail free card here. Next time he pays the piper.

[kovalchuk17]

Dubas was somewhere between adequate and good for the job he did as GM the past 5 years. Change can be good, but Im not big on change for the sake of change. It is easy to take for granted the competency of the previous GM, the next dude has got to be straight up better. There arent very many of those GMs in the league let alone available at this time so hopefully Shanahan has a good plan in place

[blayze]

Imo Shanny should be the one packing right now...

He's had a decade and the Shanaplan has failed

[2014olympicgold]

Imo Shanny should be the one packing right now...

He's had a decade and the Shanaplan has failed

I agree. But it would have had to been both Dubas and Shanahan going at once and I don't think that's the change the front office needs when they are at a critical point with the 3 forwards.

[Axeman33]

Imo Shanny should be the one packing right now...

He's had a decade and the Shanaplan has failed

I'd say, if Shanny didn't still have 2yrs left on his contract, he'd be gone too. Just my opinion.

[LawMan]

And I think a lot of teams are using it in order to keep people in house through promotions instead of losing them to other teams.

For day to day at MLSE I think it's specifically a job to manage upwards and allow the GM to focus on the hockey. But clearly it can hinder and slow things down when it comes to making big decisions.

Agreed. The problem I have with POHO is that it was is a role created to elevate a GM to keep said individual, while also "promoting" a second individual to GM.
I do not recall a single POHO in the 90s or 2000s.

The first one I recall (I'm sure there were others) was the Oilers promoting Kevin Lowe from GM to POHO to sign Steve Tambellini as GM. This was done in part because Tambellini could only leave his contract as Assistant-GM with the Canucks for a "promotion".
The Oilers literally created the POHO position so they could legally poach Tambellini (ouch). Then by the time Chiarelli came in he got both jobs, proving the title is at least partially redundant.

At the end of the day POHO allows there to be a level of separation between ownership and GM, if that POHO is useful in directing ownership over when to keep or fire a GM, then the organization benefits, if the POHO screws up and uses the GM as scapegoat, then the organization suffers.

[stevegamer]

Agreed. The problem I have with POHO is that it was is a role created to elevate a GM to keep said individual, while also "promoting" a second individual to GM.
I do not recall a single POHO in the 90s or 2000s.

The first one I recall (I'm sure there were others) was the Oilers promoting Kevin Lowe from GM to POHO to sign Steve Tambellini as GM. This was done in part because Tambellini could only leave his contract as Assistant-GM with the Canucks for a "promotion".
The Oilers literally created the POHO position so they could legally poach Tambellini (ouch). Then by the time Chiarelli came in he got both jobs, proving the title is at least partially redundant.

At the end of the day POHO allows there to be a level of separation between ownership and GM, if that POHO is useful in directing ownership over when to keep or fire a GM, then the organization benefits, if the POHO screws up and uses the GM as scapegoat, then the organization suffers.

I think that there were team presidents before that, but not specifically (vice) presidents of hockey operations. I do agree that it's often a bump up the corporate ladder for a failed GM. Flyers have Clarke & Holmrgen as examples.

[butch]

I'd imagine Dregor is getting on the nerves of Blues fans with the Doug Armstrong recruiting .

[Axeman33]

It's got to be Peter Chiarelli as the front runner, no?

[2014olympicgold]

EF said that Dubas didn't want full autonomy, he just wanted to have "a seat at the table" apparently. So when Shanahan tells the board a move, he wants to be there to make it faster. EF also said Treliving is in Toronto today for an interview (among others).

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article...ffice-changes/

[dejeanneret]

Agreed. The problem I have with POHO is that it was is a role created to elevate a GM to keep said individual, while also "promoting" a second individual to GM.
I do not recall a single POHO in the 90s or 2000s.

The first one I recall (I'm sure there were others) was the Oilers promoting Kevin Lowe from GM to POHO to sign Steve Tambellini as GM. This was done in part because Tambellini could only leave his contract as Assistant-GM with the Canucks for a "promotion".
The Oilers literally created the POHO position so they could legally poach Tambellini (ouch). Then by the time Chiarelli came in he got both jobs, proving the title is at least partially redundant.

At the end of the day POHO allows there to be a level of separation between ownership and GM, if that POHO is useful in directing ownership over when to keep or fire a GM, then the organization benefits, if the POHO screws up and uses the GM as scapegoat, then the organization suffers.

That's more or less my recollection too. And the reason I think it ultimately hurts teams that go that route. The person with the title GM is, essentially, a very watered down version of such.

Everybody respects and envies what guys like Yzerman accomplish in the GM role. But could you imagine someone like Stevie Y wanting the Leafs GM job with a guy like Shannahan hanging over him and publicly criticizing/undermining him on a real time basis?

Makes it really unattractive for the most qualified individuals, in my opinion.

[Invictus]

From Dubas to Peter Chiarelli, what an upgrade! .....

[PenguinHunter]

I hear Mike Babcock is trying to make a comeback... maybe its as a GM?

[2014olympicgold]

I hear Mike Babcock is trying to make a comeback... maybe its as a GM?

He's going to CBJ is my guess.