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Thread: Coyotes situation megathread (arena/ownership, potential relocation)

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Yea I know you said my assessment was wrong. You proved that by describing to me a bunch of existing NHL fans, proving my assessment of Hamilton correct.
    no its not....fact that they are existing fans is bad for the league and its why it wont happen...but it does not mean Hamilton would be bad NHL city..it would be great and self efficient + would have support of neighboring cities.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Belexus75 View Post
    no its not....fact that they are existing fans is bad for the league and its why it wont happen...but it does not mean Hamilton would be bad NHL city..it would be great and self efficient + would have support of neighboring cities.
    So you just can’t read? I didn’t say it was a bad NHL city. I said it was a saturated NHL city with little opportunity for tangible revenue growth compared to a number of other options that make far more sense. Which you argued against, and then proved to be correct. Thank you for proving me correct, and continuing to do so.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    So you just can’t read? I didn’t say it was a bad NHL city. I said it was a saturated NHL city with little opportunity for tangible revenue growth compared to a number of other options that make far more sense. Which you argued against, and then proved to be correct. Thank you for proving me correct, and continuing to do so.
    maybe English being my 3rd language does interfere here but you said "People in those markets need to accept what you are, a constant and perfect break glass option" to me "break glass" means weak, breakable....if im wrong on this assessment i apologize but sounded that you said Hamilton and QC would break quick as NHL markets.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    No, they wouldn’t break. They would be Winnipeg. Fall back emergency options any time the NHL needs a quick relocation option. They would provide middle of the pack stable revenue. Certainly not bad markets. Just not markets with any type of real revenue upside. They would consistently provide stable middle of the pack revenues, which is not the type of market the NHL should be targeting with expansion. Relocation if needed, definitely.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    again i disagree..they would sell out every game...they would sell tons of merchandise, only thing im not sure how it would work is TV contract...

    i believe you could have 3 NHL teams in Toronto itself and they would all sell if teams played well...even tho its Leafs market.

    i own 2 seats at scotia bank...if i want i can sell them for 3-4 times market value...its ridiculous the demand


    To me there is big difference in what league should or would target vs where hockey would work...i agree its not NHL's best interest to relocate hockey money that is already being spend...and i agree they will not do it.....what i disagree is that these markets would not work...they would be great for hockey , they would be great for fans...but they would be bad from business perspective....
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Belexus75 View Post
    again i disagree..they would sell out every game...they would sell tons of merchandise, only thing im not sure how it would work is TV contract...

    i believe you could have 3 NHL teams in Toronto itself and they would all sell if teams played well...even tho its Leafs market.

    i own 2 seats at scotia bank...if i want i can sell them for 3-4 times market value...its ridiculous the demand


    To me there is big difference in what league should or would target vs where hockey would work...i agree its not NHL's best interest to relocate hockey money that is already being spend...and i agree they will not do it.....what i disagree is that these markets would not work...they would be great for hockey , they would be great for fans...but they would be bad from business perspective....
    I also think the market would sell out every game, I think the problem is it would take revenue away from Toronto or Buffalo and so would never happen.

    The simplest solution I think would be moving Arizona to Houston. Stop giving that team an extra life, Houston is ready and would immediately boost revenues. To me addition by subtraction is more lucrative than expansion. If you can turn your worst franchise into a top earner that's better than adding a Seattle or Vegas.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Belexus75 View Post
    again i disagree..they would sell out every game...they would sell tons of merchandise, only thing im not sure how it would work is TV contract...

    i believe you could have 3 NHL teams in Toronto itself and they would all sell if teams played well...even tho its Leafs market.

    i own 2 seats at scotia bank...if i want i can sell them for 3-4 times market value...its ridiculous the demand


    To me there is big difference in what league should or would target vs where hockey would work...i agree its not NHL's best interest to relocate hockey money that is already being spend...and i agree they will not do it.....what i disagree is that these markets would not work...they would be great for hockey , they would be great for fans...but they would be bad from business perspective....
    Like every NHL market, Canadian or not, they would sell out when they are good and attendance would be fine when they are not. Even Montreal and Toronto aren’t selling out every game and Hamilton and Quebec won’t ever be Montreal and Toronto https://theathletic.com/3973879/2022...adium-tickets/

    Winnipeg was going to sell out every game too, and now they don’t. Just happens.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    I travel for work a lot in states and I think Indianapolis and Kansas City would be great places for the NHL to consider. Columbus has been such a good market and both those places would be similar. Particularly Indy. Houston is also a fantastic idea.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    rre: Atlanta.
    Some information to clarify.
    Atlanta is BIG.

    The first two attempts for Atlanta hockey had the franchise playing smack-dab out of the center of the city. The "Bullseye".
    The Atlanta city center is dense city commercial, snooty high-rise apartment folk, two universities, and people with old southern money.
    NOT hockey people.

    Atlanta, as a map, is like a clock. It has a perimeter highway (285) that circles the main city.
    Pretend that's a clock - for sake of discussion.
    And also imagine it is like a dartboard, with inner & outer areas.
    People inside perimeter 285 are called "ITP".
    People living outside 285 are called "OTP" (outside the perimeter).

    All the Northerners, myself included, who like & play hockey, live on the north end of town, above the 285 perimeter highway, between 10pm (where the Braves moved to - Smyrna/Marietta/Home Depot HQ) and 2pm (Gwinnett - where the ECHL Gladiators play). It's like... We came from the North, but wanted to stay to the north, where the hockey arenas and highways back to homelands are from.

    There are about 6-8 hockey arenas in Atlanta and ALL... ALL... are in the north end of town, between that 10pm-2pm clock-area.

    When most of my friends & I went to games - the main reason we didn't go was the commute - too far into the heart of the city.
    A little too sketchy coming out some nights in downtown.

    The above-ground-train system (MARTA) is not good enough and vehicle traffic was awful.
    Parking (like many places) was expensive.
    And the general product was terrible.

    The last Atlanta owners (whom my wife knows a couple offspring) are "good old boys" that thought they'd make something by coupling the Hawks & Thrashers and pairing their games in Philips arena.
    Big issue was there wasn't a lick of "hockey" among those owners.


    To really get it, just googlemap "hockey arenas" in Atlanta.
    Draw a big circle around the centroid of those hockey arenas.
    That's the northerners, the hockey people.

    Then put a flag where the Atlanta Flames & Atlanta Thrashers played...
    It'll be outside the circle drawn above.


    I highly doubt there's any other NHL cities where the regular hockey arenas are not close to the NHL arena.
    It was weird.
    In hopes of growing the game, people probably thought that downtown Atlanta - as the center of the Atlanta area - was the right location.
    It wasn't.
    If you want to hit the center of Atlanta hockey people... it's well north, directly north, up to the 12 o'clock mark - Alpharetta.


    Alpharetta is smack dab in the middle of the hockey circle.
    It's "North Atlanta"... and with a different ownership group... it might work.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    What would you consider the five? MLS? Hockey certainly belongs in the same category as MLS but it certainly does not have a place among the big 3 anymore.
    Yes, MLS.

    Hockey is the clear #4 right now.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    So your assertion is there’s lots of people in Hamilton not spending money on hockey merchandise, streaming, and tickets that would start and there’s a large untapped market of new fans there?

    Because there’s currently roughly 5 million people in Atlanta not spending money on hockey in any way at the moment and I’m quite certain that’s simply something Hamilton cannot compete with.

    The amount of completely new revenue the NHL has added through successful teams in Seattle and Las Vegas dwarfs anything Hamilton or Quebec City could do. Atlanta and Houston could do the same.
    I think you're vastly overselling Atlanta as a sports city. Atlanta has had trouble selling out Braves playoff games during multiple eras, without hockey or soccer at all or basketball not competing really. And the Braves have along and good history there.
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by stevegamer View Post
    I think you're vastly overselling Atlanta as a sports city. Atlanta has had trouble selling out Braves playoff games during multiple eras, without hockey or soccer at all or basketball not competing really. And the Braves have along and good history there.
    A city with 5M people is a better potential market than one with 800k. Other sports have the same location based issues that hockey has. Unless you know the state of location for the Braves stadium, it’s hard to find much relevance to their attendance issues. Everyone keeps trumpeting “Canada” and the Sens had trouble selling out round 3 playoff games. I don’t think Ottawa is a bad market. P7 would seem to indicate the Braves arena has similar location issues. I think out of context attendance figures are fun for teasing markets, but completely irrelevant in actually evaluating the viability of said market.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    A city with 5M people is a better potential market than one with 800k. Other sports have the same location based issues that hockey has. Unless you know the state of location for the Braves stadium, it’s hard to find much relevance to their attendance issues. Everyone keeps trumpeting “Canada” and the Sens had trouble selling out round 3 playoff games. I don’t think Ottawa is a bad market. P7 would seem to indicate the Braves arena has similar location issues. I think out of context attendance figures are fun for teasing markets, but completely irrelevant in actually evaluating the viability of said market.
    I wasn't trying to directly compare Atlanta & Hamilton, but trying to point out that Atlanta isn't nearly as a great sports town for attendance. Those 5 million people are mostly going to be people who won't spend money on hockey.

    Regarding the bolded, I do know the location of it, which is north of the city in a more affluent and white suburb, which helps those who didn't want to go into the city. It will draw fans from that area. The stadium deal itself was a boondoggle and a shitshow, and there were all kinds of ramifications from secret collusive deals and such. Cobb County officials have rightfully lost jobs.

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  14. #29
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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Big night in the NHL kind of going under the radar. The people of Tempe are voting tonight on whether to allow the building of a new arena for the team. If not, the odds of the Coyotes getting relocated go way up.

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    Default Re: Atlanta and Houston expansion/relocation speculation

    Great put Pete! WAAAAAYYYYY up.
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