2022 HHOF Class Announced

[Pengwin7]

Key part to thinking & discussing HHOF candidates and selections is the voting process.
There's 18 people.
They'll each get as many votes as there are spots.
And there will need to be 14 votes for a candidate to meet the 75% required to get the person into HHOF.

For example, they won't be allowed to choose 5 male skaters, because then there could be 5 male skaters that get 14+ votes.
And each could choose 2 female skaters only, because if they could choose 3 female skaters, then 3 could get 14+ votes and that would exceed the two slots.


So there's some important math/numbers-consideration here.

Towards the female skaters:
I don't think it's accurate for anybody to suggest that there is an issue with them not recognizing getting women in.

Say there's five good candidates.
18 voters x 2 spots.
Let's ASSUME that everybody recognizes the worth of female hockey and uses their full two votes, every year.

15 PlayerA
12 PlayerB
6 Player C
2 Player D
1 Player E
------
36 Votes

Only PlayerA gets in.
1of2 potential spots for women.

Player B doesn't get in. And this year, that could be Caroline Ouellette - a VERY deserving candidate.
Player C doesn't get in. And this year, that could be Jennifer Botterill - also a deserving candidate, probably less deserving than Ouellette, but also Botterill has been waiting... and some voters may be quite fond of her contributions.


So... there's a vote split.
The vote split isn't revealed.
It could exist.
It could not exist.
But it's a real, plausible, statistical possibility that could keep BOTH spots from being granted to women each year.

Again - there COULD be a case of all 18 voters using ALL of their potential spots on women.
And some people are calling it a travesty that more women aren't getting in.
And some people... might simply recognize that when there are a LOT of deserving candidates... and some have favourites... this happens... vote splitting...

Ouellette WILL get in.
Botterill, I think, will eventually get in.

And there is not (necessarily) an ounce of effort to keep women out of the Hall.
There is, very plausibly, a numbers game... where when 10 people try to get through a door... only one gets through and the next two get stuck and everybody behind them.
And then everybody blames the doorman... instead of the door.

I sort of wish some people could see this.
I think it will be a bit more evident in future years.
I think the Hall will eventually have a very healthy amount of women.
But 90% of the world doesn't really love numbers enough to understand how they can make the numbers work a bit better.





re: Mogilny.
At this point, I've got to think there are 5 opinions in the room that he was lacking some critical character issue towards fitting in with Hall electees.
Larionov is probably the most curious case... as the only Russian in the room.
I think Igor is very respected in the hockey community.

It's pure speculation (on my part)... but I'd have to think Larionov might be no fan, privately, of Mogilny... and that influence might rub off.
Not all Russians love all other Russians.
Zubov got in in 2019. And Mogilny's been eligible for a while. And I think Larionov's been a voting member since 2008 or so.
To be a fly in that room when they meet...

[rataylor22]

^ I recognize all of this. There's also a possibility that Oullette and Mogilny were not even discussed. Oullette is more deserving than anyone else inducted this year outside of Herb Carnegie. There's so many flaws with the HHOF voting process it's hard to point them out, but an easy one is having a 75% requirement and not a voting populace that can reach 75%. Should be 16, or more appropriately 20, or more appropriately something like 40. That each player has to be nominated, rather than all eligible players discussed, is also farcical. Again, Caroline Oulette may not even be discussed in these, as who even knows if she has been nominated. The secrecy surrounding it is also a joke. The entire process is a joke, and deserves to be derided and mocked.

Even if there is not a distinct effort to keep women out of the hall, there should be a distinct effort to get more women into the hall. They are already woefully underrepresented. Why are they capped at 2 while the men are capped at 4? Why are the builders only 1? The restrictions (the door, in your analogy) are not a fixed construct, it's an arbitrary restriction created by the doorman with no basis behind it. Absolutely blame the doorman. Mock the doorman. The doorman is 100% at fault, in this scenario. Not to mention, the wave of very very qualified women coming is going to make this disparity even more embarrassing going forward, not less. The HHOF is nothing more than a museum, and IMO, it's a pretty shitty museum at representing the full story of hockey history, and the main person to blame for that is the "doorman".

[CMSpiced]

I find this to be an interesting thread, as obviously people have very different opinions on players, who should be in, etc. Leaving the women side of the discussion out of it, which I agree there should be more. I have done a bit of a look up as follows:

Using the three skaters that got in this year, the Sedins & Alfredsson, I have compared them to the most common players not in from my view - Mogilny, Fleury, Roenick. Simple comparisons as follows: Top 3 seasons compared to place in the league, 10 year span of hockey compared to the rest.

H. Sedin - Best Season (1st), Second Best (4th), Third Best (12th) --> 10 Year Stretch - 06 to 15 seasons - 5th
D. Sedin - Best Season (1), Second Best (11th), Third Best (12th) --> 10 Year Stretch - 06 to 15 seasons - 6th
Alfredsson - Best Season (4th), Second Best (8th), Third Best (22nd) --> 10 Year Stretch - 00 to 11 seasons - 3th
Mogilny - Best Season (7th), Second Best (10th), Third Best (24th) --> 10 Year Stretch - 91 to 01 seasons - 17th ---> Points per Game --> 12th (due to injuries)
Roenick - Best Season (5th), Second Best (14th), Third Best (6th) --> 10 Year Stretch - 00 to 11 seasons - 12th
Fleury - Best Season (7th), Second Best (19th), Third Best (16th) --> 10 Year Stretch - 00 to 11 seasons - 9th

Looking at the above, from points only, not factoring in the other considerations, it looks like the three above were the correct decisions. I was especially surprised with Alfredsson being the 3rd best in the league over that stretch.

[LawMan]

Nice breakdown by Pengwin. That is a bad voting setup in my opinion, especially for the women's category because split voting can easily create a situation where you have 2 HHOF deserving players cancelling each other out.

All you need is 1- 10/10 and 2-9/10 players eligible to create a situation where only 1 player gets in
#1 - 18 votes
#2a- 9 votes
#2b - 9 votes.

But if you asked all voters, 14+ total would say each of 2a and 2b deserve to get in, and if you want to limit per year (which is a vacuum is a good idea for a variety of reasons) then vote on 2a OR 2b.

Anyways, I would much prefer a situation where all voters got double the number of spots and it took 14 votes to get in.
I believe Baseball gives every voter 15 spots and anyone over 75% gets in. This is more of a test of general agreement on "hall or no hall" then what currently is "Hall or No Hall relative to the other players"

[rataylor22]

Was able to listen to Puck Soup and have DGB confirm that there is multiple rounds of voting for each category and vote splitting is not an issue. He’s done The Athletic mock hall of fame committee multiple times and I am certain would extract as much information about the process as possible from Duhatschek. None of us should have any reason to doubt his information.

Not electing 2 women is a conscious choice they’re making.

[LawMan]

Was able to listen to Puck Soup and have DGB confirm that there is multiple rounds of voting for each category and vote splitting is not an issue. He’s done The Athletic mock hall of fame committee multiple times and I am certain would extract as much information about the process as possible from Duhatschek. None of us should have any reason to doubt his information.

Not electing 2 women is a conscious choice they’re making.

Well then, that is just dumb. Plenty of women who are eligible should be included.

[stevegamer]

I believe Baseball gives every voter 15 spots and anyone over 75% gets in. This is more of a test of general agreement on "hall or no hall" then what currently is "Hall or No Hall relative to the other players"

This is correct.

For the 4 players, I think the Sedins deserve to be in, and I don't think Luongo or Alfredsson do, but Alfredsson is probably closer, and I could be persuaded.

I feel that the hockey hall has some of the same issues as the basketball hall, in that it's also covering international play, women, etc. Basketball also has college players who are in for college dominance, and teams and the like.