[TRADE] Montreal acquires Dvorak from Arizona

[Belexus75]

I think this is right move for what we know today and for this upcoming season…. One day KK could very well be best asset here and worth the 6 mil or more but today this is right move by MTL and a good one

[ross10019]

4 years at 4.5m is the big win here - that’s an excellent cost-controlled contract for a quality centerman. And if anything, at least for next few years, Dvorak will be a solid complementary no 2 C to Suzuki compared to KK.

[ericdaoust]

Dvorak is more of a Danault replacement than a KK replacement

[havanablast21]

Dvorak is more of a Danault replacement than a KK replacement

Agreed. Not because he's cut from the same Ilk as Danault, but rather KK was no where near being an established C2 and Dvorak is that now. Dvorak will bring far more offence than Danault, will cost less (and spread over 4 seasons) and will most certainly be Montreal's C2. They're a better team with him than KK at $6.1.

But let's not forget that Montreal still lost a player here. Danault AND KK are gone and Dvorak in.

[Axeman33]

Agreed. Not because he's cut from the same Ilk as Danault, but rather KK was no where near being an established C2 and Dvorak is that now. Dvorak will bring far more offence than Danault, will cost less (and spread over 4 seasons) and will most certainly be Montreal's C2. They're a better team with him than KK at $6.1.

But let's not forget that Montreal still lost a player here. Danault AND KK are gone and Dvorak in.

Danault did not have a great year offensively last year so yes, compared to last year, he'll be better than Danault, but Danault had some good offensive years prior to last year. I see him as a replacement for Danault as already mentioned but I don't see him as a strong upgrade offensively if you look at them over the years.

Dvorak has yet to put up 40 points in a single season so I'm not jumping on him and looking for offensive.

I won't be one bit surprised to see Danault in LA have a better offensive season than Dvorak in Montreal next year.

[tweetdrivr]

Danault will hit 45-50 in LA and Dvorak will hit 65-70 in Montreal. Log it.

[niconasr]

I think Dvorak will be our new Tomas Plekanec. In his prime, a 60-70 pts two way forward who will eventually be a shutdown center.

[niconasr]

Am I the only one who doesn't like what Arizona did with the condition on the first round pick? Why defer on the worst of the two picks if the first one is in the top 10 instead of asking for the 2023 1st instead?

[Pengwin7]

My grades:

B/C Arizona Coyotes. I actually don't think the "trade" in itself is a big win, it's about a C. But them dumping quality so they can tank for the next two years of picks in strong high-end drafts (2022 and 2023) is a good move, IMO. For ARI, to move an asset for a 0-stat asset that tanks the team... is a good win for future assets.

B- Carolina Hurricanes. Personally, I think Kotkaniemi will be a player. Always a slow-rise for young centers. The Finns in the CAR lockerroom will help his progression. They had to overpay THIS year... and now they have a guy that can be their C3 possibly next year, if Trocheck leaves... and possibly C2 in another year - when they let J.Staal walk. As timing goes... this is a BEAUTIFUL ADDITION for Carolina. The only downside, IMO, is the tag for this year. And if they have cap room... WHO.CARES. Dvorak himself... stat-wise... is a decent comparable to KK. Dvorak had 33pts in 78gp in his rookie season for ARI... and his offensive output never really above 0.5ppg in yr2, 3, or 4. This year, in his yr5, he looked solid. It takes some of these guys a while. KK is going into yr4. A lot of players don't "fit" in their first team location. #SamBennettCGY-to-FLA

C+ Montreal Canadiens. I like Dvorak - and that contract. That's a B+ player/contract, IMO. But he's a massive downgrade from Danault's game. Let's not forget what they actually had to pay: Kotkaniemi... a 10spot first round fall... and a 2nd-to-3rd round fall. (Because I think the MON pick will be around 15... and the CAR is around 25. And then there's the 2nd rounder they PAY vs. the 3rd rounder they GOT). I think Montreal fans are fooling themselves that they won anything here. Also... they aren't a strong team, will probably miss playoffs, so it might've been a good year to just "wait". All this said - Dvorak is an asset... so as long as their utilization of him doesn't tank his game... they can flip him for something. If they flip him this year, it's because they miss playoffs... and if they miss playoffs, that MON pick could be in the tasty 11-15 range! Long term, I do believe KK > Dvorak.


Not yet discussed. Pressure. Players in Arizona... there's no pressure there, let's be honest. But Montreal... that's pressure. It'll eat some guys alive. Whether Dvorak's game can handle real-world C2 play... under a microscope. IDK.

[marc1pol2]

My grades:

B Arizona Coyotes. I actually don't think the "trade" in itself is a bit win, it's about a C. But them dumping quality so they can tank for the next two years of picks in strong high-end drafts (2022 and 2023) is a good move, IMO.

B- Carolina Hurricanes. Personally, I think Kotkaniemi will be a player. Always a slow-rise for young centers. The Finns in the CAR lockerroom will help his progression. They had to overpay THIS year... and now they have a guy that can be their C3 possibly next year, if Trocheck leaves... and possibly C2 in another year - when they let J.Staal walk. As timing goes... this is a BEAUTIFUL ADDITION for Carolina. The only downside, IMO, is the tag for this year. And if they have cap room... WHO.CARES.

C+ Montreal Canadiens. I like Dvorak - and that contract. That's a B+ player/contract, IMO. But he's a massive downgrade from Danault's game. Let's not forget what they actually had to pay: Kotkaniemi... a 10spot first round fall... and a 2nd-to-3rd round fall. (Because I think the MON pick will be around 15... and the CAR is around 25. And then there's the 2nd rounder they PAY vs. the 3rd rounder they GOT). I think Montreal fans are fooling themselves that they won anything here. Also... they aren't a strong team, will probably miss playoffs, so it might've been a good year to just "wait". All this said - Dvorak is an asset... so as long as their utilization of him doesn't tank his game... they can flip him as an asset. Long term, I do believe KK > Dvorak.


Not yet discussed. Pressure. Players in Arizona... there's no pressure there, let's be honest. But Montreal... that's pressure. It'll eat some guys alive. Whether Dvorak's game can handle real-world C2 play... under a microscope. IDK.

First, Dvorak offensive game is superior to Danault. I don't know if you have watched a lot of Danault's game but he probably got ont of the worst shot in the league. Plus Danault never came close to put the Dvorak's numbers in the junior. Dvorak will contribute to the PP what Danault couldnt do. Anyway, Dvorak isnt replacing Danault , but KK and in the short term this is an upgrade. Under all those circumstances, I think Mtl did well. They are better today then yesterday and the final outcoming of all this situation will all depends about what KK become as a player. Being a habs fan, I most say he rarely impress me and I'm not convinced he can develop in a strong top 6 player. Time will tell.

[niconasr]

My grades:

B Arizona Coyotes. I actually don't think the "trade" in itself is a bit win, it's about a C. But them dumping quality so they can take for the next two years of picks in strong high-end drafts (2022 and 2023) is a good move, IMO.

B- Carolina Hurricanes. Personally, I think Kotkaniemi will be a player. Always a slow-rise for young centers. The Finns in the CAR lockerroom will help his progression. They had to overpay THIS year... and now they have a guy that can be their C3 possibly next year, if Trocheck leaves... and possibly C2 in another year - when they let J.Staal walk. As timing goes... this is a BEAUTIFUL ADDITION for Carolina. The only downside, IMO, is the tag for this year. And if they have cap room... WHO.CARES.

C+ Montreal Canadiens. I like Dvorak - and that contract - but he's a massive downgrade from Danault's game. Let's not forget what they actually had to pay: Kotkaniemi... a 10spot first round fall... and a 2nd-to-3rd round fall. (Because I think the MON pick will be around 15... and the CAR is around 25. And then there's the 2nd rounder they PAY vs. the 3rd rounder they GOT). I think Montreal fans are fooling themselves that they won anything here. Also... they aren't a strong team, will probably miss playoffs, so it might've been a good year to just "wait".

I think people way overestimate what Danault did last year. Yes, he's a wonderful defensive center and yes, we would've loved to have him back in Montreal but he is, in no way, a massive upgrade on Dvorak. He's superior defensively, of course, as he is over basically almost every other C in the league, but that was a given. Offensively, there's a case to be made that Dvorak has a significant and egde as Danault has defensively.

It's been over 100 games since Danault last showed some significant offense in his game. Plus, he was clearly carried by Gallagher in that category. Once Gallagher got hurt, Danault stopped producing. Dvorak has produced with all types of linemates.

Either way, I think it's unfair to judge this deal as a Dvorak replacement for Danault. This trade was made to counter the KK deal. Not the Danault loss. And while I agree that the Habs are weaker than they were with Danault and KK than with Dvorak, Paquette and Perreault, that's not what this deal should be graded on.

[Pengwin7]

^Two posts above... typical "optimist/homer fan".

1. Not sure you've been around the forums much (marc1po2)... but I'm one of the bigger Danault fans out there. I'm quite aware he doesn't have high-end shot. But your comments towards that as your opening show your inability to compare players. Go look at players for relative +/- or shot differential around the league. Hockey games are won by scoring more goals FOR than AGAINST. Yes? Oui? And Danault's last 3 seasons with Montreal were a combined +44. On Montreal. +44. Go ahead and dance around the entire NHL and make me a list of guys that were +44 or better over the last three years. If Danault's got limited offense... what does an effin +44 tell you?? One doesn't even need to watch to know... but I do. (ps. For those that don't like +/-... then compare Danault to other MON forwards over past 3 years... since they played in front of same D pairings and same goalie. Apples-to-apples.)

2. Dvorak's junior numbers? WTF. You think I don't know what Dvorak's junior numbers were like. Here's a better question. What do you KNOW about Dvorak's junior numbers?
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...php?pid=161358
Go click. But... click further... because maybe you didn't follow Dvorak in junior. I was very well of his situation in junior.
Do some research. Tell me when you figure it out.
I can wait. You seem like you need an education here on Dvorak's junior numbers....

3. We'll wait on Kotkaniemi. You'll see. He'll be fine, good, maybe really good.
A young player like that under the microscope. I know. I'm a PHI fan. PHI fans aren't patient either.
Two years of underplaying expectations and fans are all "He should be better... do better..."
Psh. Awful.


Time.will.tell.
Pengwin7 bookmark.

[marc1pol2]

^Two posts above... typical "optimist/homer fan".

1. Not sure you've been around the forums much (marc1po2)... but I'm one of the bigger Danault fans out there. I'm quite aware he doesn't have high-end shot. But your comments towards that as your opening show your inability to compare players. Go look at players for relative +/- or shot differential around the league. Hockey games are won by scoring more goals FOR than AGAINST. Yes? Oui? And Danault's last 3 seasons with Montreal were a combined +44. On Montreal. +44. Go ahead and dance around the entire NHL and make me a list of guys that were +44 or better over the last three years. If Danault's got limited offense... what does an effin +44 tell you?? One doesn't even need to watch to know... but I do. (ps. For those that don't like +/-... then compare Danault to other MON forwards over past 3 years... since they played in front of same D pairings and same goalie. Apples-to-apples.)

2. Dvorak's junior numbers? WTF. You think I don't know what Dvorak's junior numbers were like. Here's a better question. What do you KNOW about Dvorak's junior numbers?
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...php?pid=161358
Go click. But... click further... because maybe you didn't follow Dvorak in junior. I was very well of his situation in junior.
Do some research. Tell me when you figure it out.
I can wait. You seem like you need an education here on Dvorak's junior numbers....

3. We'll wait on Kotkaniemi. You'll see. He'll be fine, good, maybe really good.
A young player like that under the microscope. I know. I'm a PHI fan. PHI fans aren't patient either.
Two years of underplaying expectations and fans are all "He should be better... do better..."
Psh. Awful.


Time.will.tell.
Pengwin7 bookmark.

It doesnt take much to make you mad! I don't really want to discuss with such a neurotic!

[niconasr]

^Two posts above... typical "optimist/homer fan".

1. Not sure you've been around the forums much (marc1po2)... but I'm one of the bigger Danault fans out there. I'm quite aware he doesn't have high-end shot. But your comments towards that as your opening show your inability to compare players. Go look at players for relative +/- or shot differential around the league. Hockey games are won by scoring more goals FOR than AGAINST. Yes? Oui? And Danault's last 3 seasons with Montreal were a combined +44. On Montreal. +44. Go ahead and dance around the entire NHL and make me a list of guys that were +44 or better over the last three years. If Danault's got limited offense... what does an effin +44 tell you?? One doesn't even need to watch to know... but I do. (ps. For those that don't like +/-... then compare Danault to other MON forwards over past 3 years... since they played in front of same D pairings and same goalie. Apples-to-apples.)

2. Dvorak's junior numbers? WTF. You think I don't know what Dvorak's junior numbers were like. Here's a better question. What do you KNOW about Dvorak's junior numbers?
https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...php?pid=161358
Go click. But... click further... because maybe you didn't follow Dvorak in junior. I was very well of his situation in junior.
Do some research. Tell me when you figure it out.
I can wait. You seem like you need an education here on Dvorak's junior numbers....

3. We'll wait on Kotkaniemi. You'll see. He'll be fine, good, maybe really good.
A young player like that under the microscope. I know. I'm a PHI fan. PHI fans aren't patient either.
Two years of underplaying expectations and fans are all "He should be better... do better..."
Psh. Awful.


Time.will.tell.
Pengwin7 bookmark.

As much as it's fair for you to say 'typical optimist/homer fan', it's just as fair to be critical of your arguments. The fact you're a Danault fan means absolutely nothing. I'm a huge Danault fan as well and think he'll have a great impact in LA. But that doesn't make him a better or worse player than Dvorak. Again, while Danault's underlying numbers were great offensively, he was absolutely not the driving force on his line. Gallagher, and to a lesser extent Tatar, were. And while Danault consistently outshot his opposition, he barely outscored them because his offensive game IS limited. His finishing talent, along with Gallagher's and Tatar's were below average. There is something to be said for controlling play and the Danault line (driven by Gallagher) is a great example of that. There is also something to be said for actual goals and actual production. Analytics are great and paint a decent picture of Danault's offense but if he can't actually transform that analytic edge into actual goals, then that's a problem. So yes, he was an actual +44 and that's great. But without Gallagher, Danault's numbers crater. We saw that last year and in the playoffs, with a less than 100% Gallagher, Danault's line was caved in. Doesn't mean he can't rebound, but it also means his offense is definitely limited.

And as you said, we have to wait on KK. And while I share your optimism, not every player who goes out of their terrible microcosm (PHI in your case, MTL in ours) is a success story. Galchenyuk, the Habs most recent prospect in the same situation, did not do better. He wasn't fine, or good or maybe really good. He's a vastly different player than KK, but their situation is the exact same.

So while your input is a great analysis, excuse us for having a differing one.

I can't wait to come back to this thread eventually though. One of us will look kind of stupid.

[ross10019]

Dvorak was sought after by a LOT of teams for a reason - he is under an excellent contract (4x$4.45m) for a player of his caliber, is a quiet leader and a serious and hard working player respected in the locker room, has a very underrated overall game including some excellent PP skills and PK abilities, is good in the faceoff circle, and is still only 25. And he's proven. What else do you want in a middle 6 centerman? Habs were able to beat out other teams like Boston because of their abundance of draft picks in that loaded draft next year.

I love Jack Han's analysis, here were his recent thoughts on Dvorak:

https://jhanhky.substack.com/p/chris...etter-than-you

And as for what teammates think of him, Craig Morgan tweet here speaks volumes:
https://twitter.com/craigsmorgan/sta...555667973?s=21

"Christian Dvorak was an immensely popular teammate. He was understated & quiet w/media, but had an underrated sense of humor in the room & went about his business from Day 1 like a vet.
Montreal gets a good 2-way center w/offensive upside."

There's a reason why Chychrun tweeted the crying emoji upon hearing of the trade.

Very solid pickup for the Habs.

Now, does he replace Danault? Like Peng, I'm a big fan of Danault, and his real worth and value came through during our Stanley Cup run - was a big big part of the Habs shutting down first Mathews/Marner, then Scheifele/Connor/Ehlers, then Stone/Patches, then Point/Kucherov (other than 1st 2 games, they were neutralized). So I'm a big fan of Danault. But Dvorak will be a more than reasonable replacement for him DEPENDING on what else they do at the C position and whether Evans and Poehling can progress this season.

As for KK, the mistake was made when they drafted him 3rd overall over Tkachuk and Hughes. Fast forward to him signing with the Canes on that awful offer sheet (awful from Habs perspective), and Bergy had no choice. So he made lemonade from lemons with the Dvorak signing and only gave up a 2nd to 3rd swap in terms of the return he got from the Canes.

What will be really interesting is to see what Dvorak can do with much better players on his wings. You don't have to be a Habs homer to bet no Dvorak hitting career highs this year.

My guess: 22G 33A for 55 points.