Hurricanes offer sheet Kotkaniemi

[evans334]

Getting a 1 year pay raise while tarnishing your reparation potentially ruining future pay raise is a short term gain with a long term risk, but that’s just how I see it.

I think we all agree that KK is not worth the 6.1 and the signing bonus is a slap in the face but I’ve yet to see any valid argument towards why this is good for anyone other than it being a spectacle.

[lusshouse]

Getting a 1 year pay raise while tarnishing your reparation potentially ruining future pay raise is a short term gain with a long term risk, but that’s just how I see it.

I think we all agree that KK is not worth the 6.1 and the signing bonus is a slap in the face but I’ve yet to see any valid argument towards why this is good for anyone other than it being a spectacle.

Agreed. Look at how it tarnished Shea Weber's reputation after he signed an offer sheet with the Flyers. Since seen as a selfish guy. Would never get named Captain.

Same for Joe Sakic in 1997 when he signed for 22M with the Rangers, and then promptly matched by the Avs. After that signature, he was seen as such a crybaby that he was erased from the team history -- they would not retire his number or give him a position in management with the team, a thing that could have been possible only if he had been a good soldier who'd sign whatever cheap-ish offer he was receiving at that moment.


So, yeah. Pretty sure when MB matches, a guy like Nick Suzuki who'll get the chance to use his teammate as a baseline to ask for more money, will be pretty pissed to have him in their room.



I think we gave you a lot of arguments, but you refuse to acknowledge them.

[evans334]

Lol ok thanks.

[FrozenInferno]

IF it’s the Canes plan to replace Trochek (who will probably want $7-8M himself on the open market) with KK after this season, and IF they truly believe he’s the guy to do it, and IF they believe the $6.1M baseline AAV will look like a good deal moving forward, then I guess the Canes win? They give up a couple of picks but get what they hope to be a young 2nd line center with RFA control that they don’t have to develop from scratch.

That’s a lot of “ifs” though.

One can also argue the Habs win in the end by getting some picks and avoiding overpaying a guy they sat in the playoffs but it doesn’t help their short term problem of having no centers after Suzuki. Especially if an Eichel trade was in fact a possibility but losing KK as a trade chip likely takes the potential deal off the table.

Can’t wait until Suzuki and Necas are both RFA next summer lol. Both teams better get something inked before the season ends.

[Invictus]

I can't blame them. I would be too, and then when they look at their roster and see who they have playing center, those picks don't look as good. They still need legit centers and finding a top six center isn't easy as teams aren't willing to give them away. That's why they drafted KK in the first place; to develop their own top six guy.

I mean need is a strong word. The next two drafts are going to be good ones too. Gain picks, tank a few years. Their division is going to be so competitive anyway so wouldn't be hard to do. Only thing that doesn't really line up with that is Price.

I'd say any offers from Montreal starts and ends with Suzuki.

Also Goal Caufield

[Dennis]

Getting a 1 year pay raise while tarnishing your reparation potentially ruining future pay raise is a short term gain with a long term risk, but that’s just how I see it.

I think we all agree that KK is not worth the 6.1 and the signing bonus is a slap in the face but I’ve yet to see any valid argument towards why this is good for anyone other than it being a spectacle.

It's been pointed out several times that it is not necessarily a 1 year pay raise. His qualifying offer needs to be $6.1M continually if the Habs or Canes want to keep his rights for the next several years. He can potentially keep signing this deal every year until he's UFA.

[Pengwin7]

Oh man... I try to take a Saturday as a family day and... I miss THIS!
Love it!
What fun!
What a thread!

Pengwin7 Notes:

1. Generally - love this by Carolina. Especially because Waddell and Bergevin just strike me as two GMs who would not get along in the slightest... and the Aho thing... yeah.
2a. From CAR view - I don't mind this. Sure, it's a one-year overpay, sure... they are pushing their own cap. But I think they could just consider moving out a guy like Ian Cole ($2.9m) and they're back within range to add a 14thF... and they're at 7D even without Cole. Not sure who is going to take the just-signed Cole... but they can probably find somebody. Worst case - they can give away Neiderreiter. At $5.25m, somebody would take him off the CAR roster. He's UFA next summer (2022) and I don't see any way where CAR feels they need him going forward. Also CAR has one-year left on Trochek and two-year left on Staal, so they do need to think about their C-depth going forward.
2b. Also nice "range" for CAR to capitalize on. The $6.1m slides just barely into that 1st/3rd range... over $6.17m and they'd've had to do the 2nd. Beauty.
https://thewincolumn.ca/2021/07/02/n...nsation-tiers/
...
3. For Kotkaniemi - this is a nice locker-room signing. CAR has a young, Euro lockerroom. Aho (Rauma, FIN) and Teuvo (Helsinki, FIN) are there. Raanta is also from Rauma, FIN. What fun for Jesper to have those guys. Beyond Lehkonen... MON is mostly a North American locker-room. We've all seen photos of how much the Capital Russians and Lightning Russians were smiling having compatriots on the team. It'll be no different for a young guy like Kotka to have a posse. I'd imagine this could be really good for his confidence.
...
4. From MON view - oh man, what.a.pickle. I mean, with Weber on LTIR... yeah, tons of cap space... but can they do that right now? How does that work? (I don't have a good grip on this... but IIRC, claiming your LTIR well before season can really handcuff a team). I apologize if I missed any discussion on the thread.
5. From MON view... taking the picks. Ooof. Ouch. Painful. They spent a 3rd overall on Jesper... what are they getting back here... maybe a 20th-25th overall with the quality of CAR.


What's the LTIR situ with MON/Weber - can they open up cap space for him now?
Is the cap space even a concern... or is this just about whether Bergevin wants to overpay for the one-year?

[evans334]

Yes yes, I understand how to QO’s work.

And yes he is getting a 1 year raise this year, there’s no guarantee he continues to get that level of contract.

My point was more so that we all clearly know he’s not worth that so when he doesn’t perform to that level next year it’s more likely that he isn’t rendered a QO and then he’s a UFA where he ends up signing a contract for he’s actual worth, if not less now because he’s shown that he has no problem signing a contract that basically has a middle finger on it pointed towards an organization.

So it leaves him to either stay in Carolina at a stupid price that Carolina is now kind of forced to swallow or they look silly or eat his humble pie and take a pay cut.

Obviously he can come out and have a stellar year and earn that 6.1 but I think the likelihood of that happening is not very good given his track record and progression.

Look the contract has 20$ signing bonus, that’s a shot at MTL
The statement Waddell put out being identical to the one Bergevin said, that’s a shot at MTL.
Kotkaniemi signing the contract fully well knowing the a is a a shot at MTL.
It’s not a good look.

Can’t wait for KK to be asked what his incentive was to agree to the 20$ signing bonus.
Would CAR not offered the contract unless that was there?

I’ll step away from this discussion for now cause I clearly have my own opinions. The whole thing is just silly from every angle.

[havanablast21]

How long does MTL have to respond to this OS?

[Pit Bulls]

MTL had 7 days to respond. Since he was signed yesterday, they now have 6 days left.

[havanablast21]

MTL had 7 days to respond. Since he was signed yesterday, they now have 6 days left.

Thanks buddy. I couldn’t recall the time lines.

[Axeman33]

Interesting listening to Freidman on 31 Thoughts today about this.

He said a few interesting tidbits. First, he said Carolina really likes the player and tried trading for him. He also said it wouldn't surprise him if Carolina gave Montreal a heads up that this was coming and also he figures they're already discussing the next deal with Kotkaniemi. Maybe more term, less cap hit.

He also said Montreal could take some time and try and shop the picks and figured Arizona and Dvorak could be a target of theirs for those picks.

I won't lie, if I'm Carolina, I'd have rather traded the picks going out here directly to Arizona for Dvorak than losing the picks and paying the big cap hit to Kotkaniemi. Hard to say but my preference for Carolina, who EF states are looking for a center, would be Dvorak over KK but that's me. Maybe Carolina already tried the Dvorak route.

[berni67]

Interesting listening to Freidman on 31 Thoughts today about this.

He said a few interesting tidbits. First, he said Carolina really likes the player and tried trading for him. He also said it wouldn't surprise him if Carolina gave Montreal a heads up that this was coming and also he figures they're already discussing the next deal with Kotkaniemi. Maybe more term, less cap hit.

He also said Montreal could take some time and try and shop the picks and figured Arizona and Dvorak could be a target of theirs for those picks.

I won't lie, if I'm Carolina, I'd have rather traded the picks going out here directly to Arizona for Dvorak than losing the picks and paying the big cap hit to Kotkaniemi. Hard to say but my preference for Carolina, who EF states are looking for a center, would be Dvorak over KK but that's me. Maybe Carolina already tried the Dvorak route.

Hope this will happened. But why Arizona try to sell Dvorak, he have a nice contract at 4,5M$ for next 4 seasons ?

[Axeman33]

Hope this will happened. But why Arizona try to sell Dvorak, he have a nice contract at 4,5M$ for next 4 seasons ?

They want to shed cap and gain picks. Other than that, I can't tell you.

[tobias]

Interesting listening to Freidman on 31 Thoughts today about this.

He said a few interesting tidbits. First, he said Carolina really likes the player and tried trading for him. He also said it wouldn't surprise him if Carolina gave Montreal a heads up that this was coming and also he figures they're already discussing the next deal with Kotkaniemi. Maybe more term, less cap hit.

He also said Montreal could take some time and try and shop the picks and figured Arizona and Dvorak could be a target of theirs for those picks.

I won't lie, if I'm Carolina, I'd have rather traded the picks going out here directly to Arizona for Dvorak than losing the picks and paying the big cap hit to Kotkaniemi. Hard to say but my preference for Carolina, who EF states are looking for a center, would be Dvorak over KK but that's me. Maybe Carolina already tried the Dvorak route.

If you haven't listened to this podcast yet, I suggest giving it a listen. Very insightful.

It is obvious, but often forgotten, that RFAs are still FAs, so other teams can talk to them (hence, the offer sheets). With that in mind, Friedman, as Axeman33 mentioned, said that he wouldn't be surprised if Carolina and Kotkaniemi have some sort of extension framework worked out already. This got me thinking to what that could look like. What types of post-ELC contracts in recent years, might make sense here. Two that came to mind were J.T. Compher and Alex Kerfoot. Both were signed for 4 years at 3.5 million AAV. Let's say that Carolina and Kotkaniemi agree to the idea of 4 years at 3.5 million. We could see an extension of 3 years at 2.6 million signed if Montreal doesn't match, thus giving Kotkaniemi the 14 million over four years.

Of course, he could not sign an extension and happily take his QO each year and make bank; but he better be dang certain that he has a great year this year if he goes that route.

A very interesting situation. A perfect way to end August. Cheers, everyone.