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Thread: Scheifele to be suspended?

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Right. His intention was always to make the hit whether it prevented a goal or not. I agree.

    Sorry let me change my 11 word example for you.

    I don't think he had time to process "Abandon the hit plan to prevent this goal, I think I have to pokecheck here to prevent this goal"

    slow mo, screen shots, can always be damning.

    EDIT

    I think more damning screenshots would be Evans behind the net and where Scheif is, then Evans just before scoring and showing Scheif at the top of the crease. I will say he was going for the hit prolly when he realizes Evans is going for a goal and not eating it in the corner, which was about when Scheif was between the hashmarks and the top of the circles. Or when he realizes Evans is popping out his side of the net instead of his left side of the net.
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    Watch in real time and see how much time passed between Evans behind the net to scoring. It's like 0.5s, that's the amount of time Scheifele has to make a decision of hitting vs poke check. He meant the hit, I don't know if he had the time to process "Abandon the hit plan, I think I have to pokecheck here"
    lol, Scheifele had the entire time from when Evans entered the zone to know what he was doing. It doesn't take a genius to know he's going to collect the puck and wrap it into the net. Scheifele has above average hockey IQ, please don't insult him.
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    Sorry let me change my 11 word example for you.

    I don't think he had time to process "Abandon the hit plan to prevent this goal, I think I have to pokecheck here to prevent this goal"
    Sorry so your inference here is that one of the 100 best hockey players on the planet has slow processing power? That's quite a stance.

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    It's hilarious that most of the people I've seen defending Scheifele are Leaf fans. Hockey is as tribal as ever.
    i also think hit was clean but i do think he was pissed, he knew puck is going into the net and he wanted revenge. Hit was clean but was absolutely unnecessary and intend was to hurt imo...

    im a leaf fan and i dont defend him at all..but hit itself was legal, unless you look through habs glasses i guess
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Sorry so your inference here is that one of the 100 best hockey players on the planet has slow processing power? That's quite a stance.
    I did edit my response.

    I do stand by screenshots and slowmo's always make things look worse. The moment Scheif decides to deliver a hit (to me) is earlier than I had originally remembered though.

    Like the above said, I'm believing the hit is legal, the intent is wrong, and the league is going to suspend him 2games and 1 of the 2 games is because it happened pretty much at the end of this.
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    I did edit my response.

    I do stand by screenshots and slowmo's always make things look worse. The moment Scheif decides to deliver a hit (to me) is earlier than I had originally remembered though.

    Like the above said, I'm believing the hit is legal, the intent is wrong, and the league is going to suspend him 2games and 1 of the 2 games is because it happened pretty much at the end of this.
    Sorry just hoping to clarify. Do you mean that the contact specifically was legal, or that it is not even charging and the whole encompassing play is legal. If it's the latter, I truly would like to hear the justification, based on the rule that has already been posted (and can be posted again if necessary), as to how this hit is not charging. If you agree that this is charging, then how exactly is the hit legal?

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Sorry just hoping to clarify. Do you mean that the contact specifically was legal, or that it is not even charging and the whole encompassing play is legal. If it's the latter, I truly would like to hear the justification, based on the rule that has already been posted (and can be posted again if necessary), as to how this hit is not charging. If you agree that this is charging, then how exactly is the hit legal?
    The charging portion is hard to say because the way the rule is written it allows refs to call charging if the hit is just ridiculously vicious. But the way charging can be called is typically (it's a bit rough rule of thumb) is "4strides and not breaking away from the direction of the hit" right? I think USAHockey has it a bit more defined than the NHL, and it's 2-strides + excessive distance.

    By the rules, this is a charge. Because the rule is written to allow a lot of hockey hits to be considered charging if the hitter is moving. The USAHockey way the charge rule is written specifically says if the player getting hit is hurt, it's a major. Again, checks that box.

    In terms of the NHL, it defines a charge as "Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result ofdistance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner." And this is where the rules are now up to the league to define. I think this is the issue with the NHL rulebook, and enforcement. It's vague without a hard set of "two strides" or "4 strides". Right now, the charging rule is you can skate however much distance you want straight, just as long as the hit isn't "violent". I shouldn't be using other hits as an example, and maybe that's my fault in this scenario, but I feel like if a suspension that's large is put in place here, there's a lot of hits that are charging, it's just the "violent" aspect that is now changing and that could be because the 'hittee' picked his head up and bailed on his play.

    I guess they can put the suspension in here as his distance travelled for the play is great, but I would raise a question on when the NHL thinks he starts his travel to deliver the hit. For me, it's about between the hashmarks and top of the crease, which is when Evans is making the wrap around. You see him load up at that moment. But maybe the NHL will just say, "this is your distance you travelled and you ended up making a violent hit" and deciding when you're making the hit won't matter. Which I would want a bit more definition on charging by the DoPS because charging is too vague in the rulebook.

    By definition, its a charge because the definition sets up that due to the vagueness. But we aren't here to argue that I guess, so to me, is it a charge....I can see that more now, but I want to hear the DoPS define it so in the future we can use it as an example.
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  8. #53
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    This is a really tough one to rule on IMO, and no matter what DOPS at least half of fans will be upset.
    Questions I am not sure about

    1. Does Scheifele have an obligation to play the puck here?
    I always thought that if a player had the puck the defensive player was in their right to “play the body” to separate player from puck. Hell, that is what most young players are taught, play the body with a goalie in net it makes sense.

    2. Was it charging?
    a. The official definition is very vague and essentially says “a big heavy hit, maybe with intention, if the ref feels like it”
    i. Various “informal” definitions I have heard over the years:
    1. Where the hitter takes more than 3 strides
    a. In this case that does not make sense because Scheifele has chased him from his own end, because that is where the puck is and because Evans had the puck…
    2. Where the hitter does not “glide” into the hit
    a. Scheifele does actually “glide” the last 1-2 strides
    3. Where the hitter “leaves his feet”
    a. Scheifele does not leave his feet.

    3. Was it a “hit to the head”
    No. The contact portion of the hit is text book “clean” IMO. Shoulder of Scheifele into the chest of Evans.

    Also, the frame-by-frame changing of Scheifele’s intention/actions I think work against him.
    1. Evans takes off, Scheifele pursues hard – fine.
    a. Again I don’t think you can say Scheifele travelled 200 ft just to hit Evans, that is silly.
    2. Scheifele is close to having a stick check on the wrap around – if he goes all out, he has a chance to stop the goal. He should have done that and played the puck.
    a. Devil’s advocate: It is tough/dangerous to go flying at Evans here if you miss you crash into the boards… courtesy Mike Commodore’s take.
    b. Scheifele slows up on the play for a split second. He almost looks like he is slowing down to prepare to cover Evans into the corner, this is the default defensive play here, without an empty net.
    c. Evans turns for the wrap around, Scheifele should try to stick-check to stop the goal, he does not.
    d. A split second late Scheifele decides to hit Evans, the hit is slightly after the puck leaves Evans stick.
    e. The hit is all-out hard.
    i. Evans is, IMO, in a vulnerable/defenseless position.

    I do think this is going to be a statement ruling by DOPS, because the hit does not clearly violate any clearly written rule (that I’m aware of), it is probably charging but not without debate, and it is not a hit to the head, which has been the NHL’s bigger emphasis.
    Overall, I see Scheifele chasing the puck hard, he made a mistake by not defending the wrap-around sooner, and realized too late, decided to deliver a slightly late and devastating hit to a vulnerable player. He could have let up on the hit and did not.
    I want the NHL to focus on the lateness of the hit and the vulnerableness of Evans and the “no let up”. I want a 2-game suspension. The NFL has been successful in changing the mantra from “do not put yourself in vulnerable positions” to “Hitting player has a duty to not hit vulnerable players hard which can cause injury” I think the NHL should do the same.

    This type of ruling allows and requires the DOPS to determine whether a player is vulnerable and the hit is “too big” which is another problem to solve, which means more subjectiveness and making it harder to have consistent precedent, that is the exact opposite of what we fans want for DOPS I do not have a good answer for that going forward.
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Side note, Winnipeg tweeted a video about Game 1 like 2hrs ago and they added the hit and the scrum after to the video at the end of it...Not the best look.
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan View Post

    Also, the frame-by-frame changing of Scheifele’s intention/actions I think work against him.
    1. Evans takes off, Scheifele pursues hard – fine.
    a. Again I don’t think you can say Scheifele travelled 200 ft just to hit Evans, that is silly.
    2. Scheifele is close to having a stick check on the wrap around – if he goes all out, he has a chance to stop the goal. He should have done that and played the puck.
    a. Devil’s advocate: It is tough/dangerous to go flying at Evans here if you miss you crash into the boards… courtesy Mike Commodore’s take.
    b. Scheifele slows up on the play for a split second. He almost looks like he is slowing down to prepare to cover Evans into the corner, this is the default defensive play here, without an empty net.
    c. Evans turns for the wrap around, Scheifele should try to stick-check to stop the goal, he does not.
    d. A split second late Scheifele decides to hit Evans, the hit is slightly after the puck leaves Evans stick.
    e. The hit is all-out hard.
    i. Evans is, IMO, in a vulnerable/defenseless position.

    I do think this is going to be a statement ruling by DOPS, because the hit does not clearly violate any clearly written rule (that I’m aware of), it is probably charging but not without debate, and it is not a hit to the head, which has been the NHL’s bigger emphasis.
    Overall, I see Scheifele chasing the puck hard, he made a mistake by not defending the wrap-around sooner, and realized too late, decided to deliver a slightly late and devastating hit to a vulnerable player. He could have let up on the hit and did not.
    I want the NHL to focus on the lateness of the hit and the vulnerableness of Evans and the “no let up”. I want a 2-game suspension. The NFL has been successful in changing the mantra from “do not put yourself in vulnerable positions” to “Hitting player has a duty to not hit vulnerable players hard which can cause injury” I think the NHL should do the same.
    i'll devil's advocate your devil's advocate, if a player is looking down at the puck and not looking up, doesn't that put him in a vulnerable position? so then any hit to a player with the puck with his eyes on the ice would be a penalty?
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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    I'm not willing to opine on a suspension. I've said it lots (maybe not here), but I basically consider the DoPS a monkey spinning a wheel who is not intelligent enough to peel a banana. I personally think it should be a suspension, because I personally think hits like this don't belong in the game, and I personally don't like to see potentially career-altering or ending hits/injuries. But all of those are personal preferences for me, and if someone feels differently who am I to tell them they are wrong. As long as we all agree that this hit is charging, and therefore by definition not clean, we're good.

    As for the "all hits are violent and therefore all hits are charging", like I agree. That doesn't mean I want hitting removed from the game and I don't think all hits should be called charging. If you can say with a straight face that this particular hit isn't one of the most violent hits we've seen in the NHL in the last three years, I don't really know what to tell you. For charging, the level of violence directly correlates to the level of punishment. The level of violence on this hit was extraordinarily high, and as such the level of punishment was/is extraordinarily high.

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues_fan1000 View Post
    i'll devil's advocate your devil's advocate, if a player is looking down at the puck and not looking up, doesn't that put him in a vulnerable position? so then any hit to a player with the puck with his eyes on the ice would be a penalty?
    All your arguing here is that the NHL poorly and inconsistently calls its own rules which we already know to be demonstrably true. This argument has no bearing on this particular play.

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Invictus View Post
    Evan's turned to score a freaking goal! A goal that was so obvious to Scheifele and maybe could have maybe prevented had he played the puck, but instead choose to take out his frustration and run through him. Their professionals and Scheifele knew full well what he was doing and the outcomes that come with it. Final minute of the game so a penalty means shit.

    Scheifele had ample time to choose a better decision and didn't. These are exactly the choices the league needs to address. Reckless and highly preventable.
    It's not really the hit you got to look at but the entire play itself.
    If you're looking at the entire play, as you insist should be done...

    1) EVANS is racing up the left side chasing down the puck
    2) Mark is racing toward the right post, I can only assume was an effort to try and cut off the scoring chance.

    at some point, it may have become apparent to Scheifele that Evans was going to beat him, or maybe his "never give up" attitude had him focused on trying to cut off that scoring chance which was close (and those 3 screen captures depict).

    SO... when was he supposed to shift his mind set from trying to stop a goal vs addressing the fact that Evans is now in his path and a collision likely unavoidable?

    the 1 or 2 seconds from screen grab 1 to screen grab 2 or 3? (or is it actually hundredths or thousands of a second?)

    You're right Invictus, "Evans Turned (into scheifele's path) to score a freaking goal!" ... he got the goal and the collision happened while Schiefele appeared to be trying to prevent the goal.

    High Speed contact sport. This shit happens and will continue to happen if you continue to watch Hockey. But only the players themselves know for sure I guess. Leaving us to speculate. I didn't see the collision as malicious, nor do I see that as the primary focus for Scheifele, but was most certainly the brutal end result from 2 guys trying to execute a hockey play.

    Just my perspective which no one needs to agree with I guess.

    Carry on.

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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blues_fan1000 View Post
    i'll devil's advocate your devil's advocate, if a player is looking down at the puck and not looking up, doesn't that put him in a vulnerable position? so then any hit to a player with the puck with his eyes on the ice would be a penalty?
    Says Eric Lindros ...


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    Default Re: Scheifele to be suspended?

    I think our issues on the side of "can't have the book thrown at him" is we are thinking, "you can't do this because of other plays like this are..." blahblahblah.

    Where if you just look at the hit then it's "holy that's a violent hit". Maybe that's the issue where we're looking for, hoping for, some level of consistency between plays are trying to eliminate the result of the play from the equation to try and make a bit of a "if you do this, you get this level of suspension".
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