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Thread: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

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    Default Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Saw a few debates in different forums and on Twitter yesterday.

    Thought it'd get your opinions on this. this is just for debate and discussion. I know there is clearly no right or wrong answer and that its the NHL that needs to step up if they want it to change.

    Tampa Bay Lightning is currently playing with a 90$ M salary cap for playoffs. Kucherov has been training on ice since March, and TBL never activated him to the roster before season end. Let's be honest here, he could have clearly played the last 10 games of TBL if he wanted to. TBL therefore was able to trade and have expensive rentals for playoffs, and on the first game of the playoffs Kucherov is back.

    Your thoughts on this? Is it fair game or is TBL just outsmarting the league rules, yet there are no action taken? are others GMs afraid to step up and get reprimended for doing so? if TBL wins the cup this year, will this create a debate? How come some teams were penalized (luongo contract) and others not? What comes to mind are situations like Kovalchuk (NJD got penalized for it), Hossa skin situation, Luongo contract, etc.

    I used the TBL as an example because there was debate on it yesterday, (clearly Kucherov was healthy before playoffs but the team just didn't activate him), but other teams also do it (Toronto i believe) and some take salary cap off and don't even have the player dress up for the game (red wings).

    What are your thoughts on this?
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    At the end of the regular season, there was almost one half of the league using the LTIR to circumvent the salary cap ceiling. It's there for a reason. People always mention TB this year but usually dont mention the other teams doing it. Cheers for mentioning Toronto but their number was low compared to others. It's funny because they acquired Nash while on LTIR JUST to benefit their cap situation. Late season injuries and recalling Andersen is what moved their number down the list.

    In order of how much over the cap the teams were and how much they were over at the end of the regular season:

    TBL - $17.3M
    STL - $8.64M
    NYI - $6.92M
    VAN - $4.51M
    CHI - $4.43M
    ANA - $4.18M
    EDM - $4.1M
    WSH - $3.99M
    DAL - $3.19M
    WPG - $2.87M
    TOR - $2.78
    COL - $1.46M
    VEG - $1.36M
    PIT - $1.275M
    MTL - $1.14M


    Personally, I dont have an issue with it. Tampa Bay had Kucherov on LTIR all season, which meant he wasn't playing for them all season. When you are missing one of the best players in the league ALL SEASON long, that can't be easy. Tampa just happens to be blessed with a deep team and since one of their highest paid players had a serious injury, they were able to add other pieces to help them. That's the whole purpose of LTIR.

    Is it shady? I don't think so. Toronto has been using loopholes for cap circumvention for ages. Lou was a genius at it. Did people complain about them doing it? Of course. Who cares if TB used it to their advantage. It's not like Kucherov wasn't legitimately injured. Good luck proving when he was healthy enough to return.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    The NHL salary cap doesn't work as the sum of the AAV of all active salaries must be below a set number like fantasy leagues do. It accrues daily. Also, players salaries are payed out through the regular season and don't continue into the playoffs. So no, Tampa doesn't have a $90M+ salary, they have $0, just like every other team. There is no easy answer as any change to how the cap is added up daily will negatively effect trading league-wide. If you're insisting that a player's AAV should be the determining factor in how the cap works then that means, for example, Taylor Hall's 37 games for the Sabres this season impact the Bruins cap when he only played 16 games for them which doesn't make sense. Attaching negative cap-value to players is a bad idea.

    Tampa Bay had room under the salary cap to play Kucherov at the end of the season as well, with cap-space accrued and Stamkos on LTIR. You and others say "...he could have clearly played the last 10 games of TBL if he wanted to." Then why didn't he?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    GMs are just being smart and using the rules to their advantage. If the league as a group wants it fixed, they'll fix it.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    At the end of the regular season, there was almost one half of the league using the LTIR to circumvent the salary cap ceiling. It's there for a reason. People always mention TB this year but usually dont mention the other teams doing it. Cheers for mentioning Toronto but their number was low compared to others. It's funny because they acquired Nash while on LTIR JUST to benefit their cap situation. Late season injuries and recalling Andersen is what moved their number down the list.

    In order of how much over the cap the teams were and how much they were over at the end of the regular season:

    TBL - $17.3M
    STL - $8.64M
    NYI - $6.92M
    VAN - $4.51M
    CHI - $4.43M
    ANA - $4.18M
    EDM - $4.1M
    WSH - $3.99M
    DAL - $3.19M
    WPG - $2.87M
    TOR - $2.78
    COL - $1.46M
    VEG - $1.36M
    PIT - $1.275M
    MTL - $1.14M


    Personally, I dont have an issue with it. Tampa Bay had Kucherov on LTIR all season, which meant he wasn't playing for them all season. When you are missing one of the best players in the league ALL SEASON long, that can't be easy. Tampa just happens to be blessed with a deep team and since one of their highest paid players had a serious injury, they were able to add other pieces to help them. That's the whole purpose of LTIR.

    Is it shady? I don't think so. Toronto has been using loopholes for cap circumvention for ages. Lou was a genius at it. Did people complain about them doing it? Of course. Who cares if TB used it to their advantage. It's not like Kucherov wasn't legitimately injured. Good luck proving when he was healthy enough to return.
    nice statistic!!

    well, it clearly shows that there is a grey area right there within the salary cap rules. I guess it won't change if nobody intervenes in the NHL board of directors. Clearly half the teams go around the rules to their benefit, some are better or more opportunist than others at it. But this proves theres a big elephant in the room that nobody seems to talk about. Clearly there is an issue right there.

    i am guessing once a team wins with 30$M over salary cap will then make others realize there is something that needs to change lol. 17M ain't enough.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    I agree with Axeman. Teams have been doing it for quite a while. There was a Leafs player (forget the name) a few years back who was put on LTIR and he protested by posting a photo of him snowboarding.

    Some teams also circumvented the cap by including other teams in trades to spread the cap hit around. The Lightning traded two players in the preseason to the Sens to get players who were on LTIR to get under the cap.

    The only ways you could do away with cap circumvention would be to have the salary cap also included in the playoffs and to make it so you can't trade a player on the LTIR, but I'm assuming the players wouldn't like it. It would mean less money to go around among the players.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by newfcollins View Post
    I agree with Axeman. Teams have been doing it for quite a while. There was a Leafs player (forget the name) a few years back who was put on LTIR and he protested by posting a photo of him snowboarding.

    Some teams also circumvented the cap by including other teams in trades to spread the cap hit around. The Lightning traded two players in the preseason to the Sens to get players who were on LTIR to get under the cap.

    The only ways you could do away with cap circumvention would be to have the salary cap also included in the playoffs and to make it so you can't trade a player on the LTIR, but I'm assuming the players wouldn't like it. It would mean less money to go around among the players.

    yeah but doesn't mean that they been doing it for quite a while that it is ok to do it. Nobody wants to face the big elephant in the room or wants change. There is clearly something off, but nobody wants to talk about it and since they been doing it for quite a while its ok?

    Fantasy wise, do you calculate LTIR in your salary cap leagues when comes playoffs? (i dont do salary cap league so i don't know)

    i agree that in playoffs LTIR should be calculated, that would just settle the record straight.

    Give you an example, TBL and Florida game yesterday was INSANE. how hockey playoffs should be played. But TBL had a team with over 17$M and Florida was right on par with salary cap. You either put a salary cap and make it fair or you don't, but on paper both teams weren't equal
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    If Kucherov hadn't played yesterday, would this even be a discussion today? Even though half the league used it as an "advantage" to exceed the leagues cap during the regular season.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Fantasy wise, do you calculate LTIR in your salary cap leagues when comes playoffs? (i dont do salary cap league so i don't know)
    I'd be interested to see if there are cap leagues that work like the NHL's but everyone I've seen is you add up everyone's annual salary and it must be under the cap.

    The NHL's works more like a giant pile of money paid out everyday and teams cannot deplete their pile. We shouldn't be thinking of Kucherov's cap-hit as being $9.5M for the season but being (roughly) $50k every day he is on the roster during the season.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    yeah but doesn't mean that they been doing it for quite a while that it is ok to do it. Nobody wants to face the big elephant in the room or wants change. There is clearly something off, but nobody wants to talk about it and since they been doing it for quite a while its ok?

    Fantasy wise, do you calculate LTIR in your salary cap leagues when comes playoffs? (i dont do salary cap league so i don't know)
    Truthfully, it's a problem the fans have, not the players, GMs, owners or the league. Even if you change the rules, there will always be loopholes (frontloading contracts is another cap circumvention, but it keeps happening). If no one in the league cares about it, then why change it?

    In my cap league, players that go on IR automatically are removed from the cap. But we don't have the same rules as the NHL.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    If Kucherov hadn't played yesterday, would this even be a discussion today? Even though half the league used it as an "advantage" to exceed the leagues cap during the regular season.
    probably not, but TBL made it pretty obvious on it. Kucherov training for past month with a full contact jersey, coming back on game 1, having an outstanding game. completely agree if it was Jeffrey Lupul coming back nobody would talk. But i guess now that Kuch did what he did, people will start noticing it a bit more now.

    I don't disagree with you. TBH i don't really care, the series will be an awesome one to watch and if anything, props to Julien Brisebois. I just like to see from another perspective and point of view, and i understand where the concerns are coming from. When does it stop? Does a team need to have Kuch, stamkos, hedmand and vaslevski on LTIR and coming in playoffs with +30M over cap to make modifications?

    as a fan, great show and game yesterday. As the Florida GM, maybe i would be mad if i lose series to a team that is 17M over cap vs my team who is legitimate.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    wouldnt be surprised if the isles have boychuk , clutterbuck , ladd on there next season for a total of aprox 15 mil

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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    Give you an example, TBL and Florida game yesterday was INSANE. how hockey playoffs should be played. But TBL had a team with over 17$M and Florida was right on par with salary cap. You either put a salary cap and make it fair or you don't, but on paper both teams weren't equal
    Both teams were cap compliant, because LTIR is a part of the cap system. Multiple posts are saying things like "circumventing the cap" and that's not happening when LTIR is allowed under the current cap system. If some teams use it better than others it is because they have better, more creative front offices, and thats not different than Sakic or Stevie Y fleecing other GM's in trades or some teams drafting better because they have better scouting departments

    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    I don't disagree with you. TBH i don't really care, the series will be an awesome one to watch and if anything, props to Julien Brisebois. I just like to see from another perspective and point of view, and i understand where the concerns are coming from. When does it stop? Does a team need to have Kuch, stamkos, hedmand and vaslevski on LTIR and coming in playoffs with +30M over cap to make modifications?


    If a team can sit their Vezina trophy winner, Norris Winner, Hart winner and multi Richard winner and still make the playoffs then I mean....kudos to them. I think the fact that Kuch had a severe injury and just waited like an extra week makes this seem like a bigger problem than it is. Players want to play, and owners don't want to pay star players not to play. I don't think this becomes a bigger issue than it is tbh
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Teams aren't doing anything wrong, I'm more curious if the League is going to stomp it out, or enforce LTIR usage more. Every team exploits the LTIR loophole, and I thought I saw the league said they'd investigate it more a yr or two ago, so maybe it's on their radar this offseason.

    I have no issue with teams doing it. I do think the league needs to push teams more on LTIR usage tho. Leafs have gotten away with it for yrs. I have no idea how you enforce a rule so if Kucherov or anyone is healthy, you force them off LTIR.

    As an example, Andersen for the Leafs could have played lets say 2 weeks ago. But because he returned from an injury earlier in the season just to get rehurt, a team has full right and totally understandable they'd sit him for extra time to make sure he's fine. So I dunno how you enforce it.

    Things I think the league will eventually try to stop. LTIR manipulation and middle-man trades (how Toronto got Foligno, Vegas getting Lehner). I just feel like it'll get enforced somehow, eventually.


    Also MTL def did this with Price. The team didn't even have enough cap space to do a Caufield promotion until Primeau was sent down. They held Price out of the lineup for LTIR Manipulation, and no one has been upset about that move.
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    Default Re: Thoughts on teams taking advantage of the salary cap rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    If Kucherov hadn't played yesterday, would this even be a discussion today? Even though half the league used it as an "advantage" to exceed the leagues cap during the regular season.
    But what Tampa has done is the most egregious abuse we have ever seen. Think back to the offseason. Tampa was desperately trying to get under the cap and players would not waive their no-move clause. Then, voila! Kucherov is on LTIR for the entire season solving their cap problems for this season but is back apparently fully healthy for the playoffs. Hey, I follow the Blackhawks so I know how teams get around the salary cap but this just feels like too much of an abuse.

    And that's a great chart you posted. Many teams have LTIR of injured, retired players or those that are out for the rest of the season. According to Cap Friendly, Tampa only has a little over 6 M of that 17.2 M over the cap amount you posted not playing. That's 12% over the cap. I wouldn't be surprised if some new rules are created due to this season if Tampa goes on to win the Cup. Not to mention the below market deals that players signed due to Florida's lack of state income taxes.
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