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Thread: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

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    Default Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Hoping someone here has built a carriage house - either as a builder or for themselves - that doesn't live in Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal as those cities have inflated costs to rest of Canada.

    I live in Nanaimo, BC so I realize it's still more expensive than small town or east Coast.

    From what I can gather -

    foundation, city water/septic & build to lock up plus for a 900 sqft two story carriage house on slab will cost between 120k and 200k.
    Online estimations are so hard to come by.

    I can do the majority of the finishing myself so I'm hoping to land in the lower half of the middle around 150k.

    I've also seen anywhere from 25% - 50% down-payment in order to get mortgage approval to build.

    My estimates include buying plans, city application fees and permits from start to finish.
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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Luca,

    I posted your question to my buddy in Victoria BC who does this sort of thing for a living. I asked him for ‘a 5 minute answer’.

    ....

    From what I gathered the cost of builder fees have sky rocketed in Nanaimo over the last 5 years, especially the last 3. It is booming in Nanaimo. They have created their own little bubble. Prices are not too far off from Victoria but obviously less.

    His numbers are pretty good estimates. But he is leaving out a few key costs. As in, Strucutral engineering, he may require a geotechnical engineer depending on the location he wants to build at.

    I was talking to a builder last month and he is building a 800sf laneway house in Victoria. He’s estimating that it’ll cost under $200,000 for everything. That’s building costs but doesn’t include fees for design or permits. So for Nanaimo, he shouldn’t be over $200,000 especially if he’s planning to do a lot of the finishing.

    That’s about all I can say in five minutes but I can talk about it all day long!

    One key thing he has to know. The design of the house will vastly reflect the overall cost. For example, the more corners it had, the more it will cost to build.

    Let me know if you need more info or want to talk.

    Paul Park
    www.parkresidentialdesigns.com
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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    My wife & I are planning an addition on our current 1400sf home.
    I've been in the engineering/construction field for 20+ years now.

    I can tell you one important thing, that probably spans all of North America:
    Good construction teams are thin. Thin. THIN. Capital. bold.

    It's a larger topic... that "tradespersons" have become non-glorious occupations.
    Everybody wants to be a YouTube star, pop singer, in advertising, marketing, psychology, sports trainer.
    People want to be entrepreneurs or work in cute millenial free-flow space writing blogs or internet articles.
    Ha. Super.

    The "tradesperson" has become a dying occupation.
    Carpenters, welders, steelworkers, plumbers, electricians... young men aren't signing up for this anymore unless they have a relative that has somehow shown it in positive light.

    This... lack of quality tradespeople IS finally arriving in home prices.
    Whether it is renovation or new build - costs are SKYROCKETING.

    My wife & I have been meeting recently with residential general contractors.
    We talk to them... many are complete dumb-asses (high school drop-outs) that want 20%+ on the costs/labor of subs just to manage the work.
    It's getting crazy.

    The Home Depots, Lowes.... part of the reasons they've been popping off in the last 5-10 years that people really ARE starting to do things themselves... because it's not cheap to hire somebody.

    Home renovators are raking it these days.
    And a lot of them (I've encountered two recently) scam the money, do discount work, then file for bankruptcy after hiding costs in their own home property renovation upgrades.


    In other words... good effin luck.
    Not trying to be a Debbie Downer... but for anybody needing to HIRE somebody to do a new build, addition, or renovation... you are going to PAY.THRU.THE.NOSE.
    My parents neighbor, my cousin, my wife's good friend... all went through home builds and renovations lately and ALL were LATE... ALL were OVERPRICED.
    ALL of them were UNHAPPY with what they got for their $$$.

    My advice: Buy an existing home shell as cheap as you can.
    Buy for location & space (the building shell).

    Learn to fix it up yourself, use YouTube.
    Chip away at everything you can.
    The whole "buy land & develop" is a thing of the previous generation.
    That's not a discount anymore.

    The world is ripe for the keen DIY person... everybody else better be making 6figs if they hope for a cute house.
    Supply.demand.
    Tradespeople are about to start raking it again.
    The good ones are in short supply and high demand.
    And the talented ones are nearing retirement.

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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    Luca,

    I posted your question to my buddy in Victoria BC who does this sort of thing for a living. I asked him for ‘a 5 minute answer’.

    ....

    From what I gathered the cost of builder fees have sky rocketed in Nanaimo over the last 5 years, especially the last 3. It is booming in Nanaimo. They have created their own little bubble. Prices are not too far off from Victoria but obviously less.

    His numbers are pretty good estimates. But he is leaving out a few key costs. As in, Strucutral engineering, he may require a geotechnical engineer depending on the location he wants to build at.

    I was talking to a builder last month and he is building a 800sf laneway house in Victoria. He’s estimating that it’ll cost under $200,000 for everything. That’s building costs but doesn’t include fees for design or permits. So for Nanaimo, he shouldn’t be over $200,000 especially if he’s planning to do a lot of the finishing.

    That’s about all I can say in five minutes but I can talk about it all day long!

    One key thing he has to know. The design of the house will vastly reflect the overall cost. For example, the more corners it had, the more it will cost to build.

    Let me know if you need more info or want to talk.

    Paul Park
    www.parkresidentialdesigns.com
    This totally makes sense. Personally... I'm one that believes it's the finishes that get you the income -not the fancy design. Especially in a rental. Most renters don't care if it's a box or has oodles of character. I get that changes a bit when you look to make it an Air B&B which we're tossing that idea around as well for the extra income. I'd much rather pick a higher end counter top than spend $5000 on a funky corner nook.

    He's right, Nanaimo has skyrocketed. Jan 2016 average house price in Nanaimo was $356 000. June 2020 it's $586 000. We can thank Vancouver and investment from Asia for that (2016).

    I appreciate you reaching out to your friend. Lets me know I'm pretty close to being on track with my numbers. I'll have to look at some design prices in detail as we get closer - if we decide to go with a place that has the C.H. option.

    The other piece with this that's hard to get concrete info on is what I need for a down payment. 50% seems absurd. 30% seems more in line with a new build down-payments if not slightly above. That really depends on the lender though.
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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    My wife & I are planning an addition on our current 1400sf home.
    I've been in the engineering/construction field for 20+ years now.

    I can tell you one important thing, that probably spans all of North America:
    Good construction teams are thin. Thin. THIN. Capital. bold.

    It's a larger topic... that "tradespersons" have become non-glorious occupations.
    Everybody wants to be a YouTube star, pop singer, in advertising, marketing, psychology, sports trainer.
    People want to be entrepreneurs or work in cute millenial free-flow space writing blogs or internet articles.
    Ha. Super.

    The "tradesperson" has become a dying occupation.
    Carpenters, welders, steelworkers, plumbers, electricians... young men aren't signing up for this anymore unless they have a relative that has somehow shown it in positive light.

    This... lack of quality tradespeople IS finally arriving in home prices.
    Whether it is renovation or new build - costs are SKYROCKETING.

    My wife & I have been meeting recently with residential general contractors.
    We talk to them... many are complete dumb-asses (high school drop-outs) that want 20%+ on the costs/labor of subs just to manage the work.
    It's getting crazy.

    The Home Depots, Lowes.... part of the reasons they've been popping off in the last 5-10 years that people really ARE starting to do things themselves... because it's not cheap to hire somebody.

    Home renovators are raking it these days.
    And a lot of them (I've encountered two recently) scam the money, do discount work, then file for bankruptcy after hiding costs in their own home property renovation upgrades.


    In other words... good effin luck.
    Not trying to be a Debbie Downer... but for anybody needing to HIRE somebody to do a new build, addition, or renovation... you are going to PAY.THRU.THE.NOSE.
    My parents neighbor, my cousin, my wife's good friend... all went through home builds and renovations lately and ALL were LATE... ALL were OVERPRICED.
    ALL of them were UNHAPPY with what they got for their $$$.

    My advice: Buy an existing home shell as cheap as you can.
    Buy for location & space (the building shell).

    Learn to fix it up yourself, use YouTube.
    Chip away at everything you can.
    The whole "buy land & develop" is a thing of the previous generation.
    That's not a discount anymore.

    The world is ripe for the keen DIY person... everybody else better be making 6figs if they hope for a cute house.
    Supply.demand.
    Tradespeople are about to start raking it again.
    The good ones are in short supply and high demand.
    And the talented ones are nearing retirement.
    I appreciate this post more than you know. One of the scariest things is trying to find someone to change your space that you can trust for all the reasons you have listed.
    We're on the hunt for our third home. We've looked at a few newer homes and a lot of what you say is too true.

    The finishes on some are crap. details and layout overlooked. Who puts a laundry room where the entry way coat closet is suppose to be on a newly built home? Who runs a PVC pipe from the central heat system above the floor into the garage in the storage closet?

    It's also a thing on new builds to not give back yard access to the home owner. Why build a deck and put the rental suite entrance on the side of the home if you are not going to also install stairs down into the backyard. I have a large dog. I am not walking him into and out of my back yard every time he wants to pee or poop. F- that! But I digress.


    I feel pretty confident with the people I know in the city that I'll be able to obtain the services of a builder that will be on time & give me a fair price and finish at that price. I don't believe I am wearing rose coloured glasses when I say this. A lot of it comes down to who you know and who you trust.

    I've renovated a full kitchen & bathroom and done floors, basic electrical so I don't have to waste money on someone painting walls, flooring or siding the carriage house.
    An Ikea kitchen is like buying a box of K'nex. it's actually kinda fun to build and install.

    The one thing that separates a DIY vs. hiring someone is time.

    They work while you work
    vs.
    You work after you work.

    What we're looking for is to have a rental suite in place as quickly as possible.
    Which, unless a suite is already in place and rent-ready - hiring someone for the build to lock up/+ is going to be a requirement to a certain degree.
    Follow me on twitter: @doylelb4

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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    They work while you work
    vs.
    You work after you work.
    That's not really correct apples-to-apples, money-vs-money and time-vs-time.

    It would be:
    They work at house, while you work at work, and you work extra OT to pay for it...
    vs.
    Nobody works at house, while you work at work, then you work at home (instead of OT)


    Yes. Many people forget that their earning also incurs taxes (40%?) on the highest dollars they earn.
    Which means one has to earn $10,000, pay taxes, just to clear $6000 to spend.
    Somebody making $50/hr.... that's 200 hours (5 weeks) to earn $6000 to spend.
    Labour & materials are often 1:1 on many projects, so that's a $12,000 project's labor.

    The option is that the owner/DIY person does their own labor... how many hours do they need to replicate a certain amount of "tradesperson" labour?
    That's the hard part.

    As an example, I recently had a quote from HomeDepot to put in hardwoods for our 600sf upstairs.
    HD quoted me $7000... $4000 labor, $3000 materials.
    The $4000 labor would cost me more like $6000 in earnings, with 33% going to taxes.

    If I make (say!) $40/hr... that's 150 hours at the office to cover that.
    Alternatively, I install it myself... which I did... I'm currently 8x10hr days in.
    I probably have 3x10hr days left.
    That will be a grand total of 11x10hr days, 110hrs.
    [Realistically, HomeDepot probably sends 5-man crew and they knock it out in 8hrs, so 40man hrs, billed @ $100/laborer/hr... but in time, yes, much less than my 110man hrs!]

    So... I'll spend 40 hours less (in labour cost)... in the comfort of my own home... breaking where needed to hang out with my kids or help my wife.
    Rather than being at the office on weekends.

    Two ways to look at achieving the same task.
    But it does work better when you are doing DIY within your own home.
    And it does depend on one's own DIY skill & pace.

    People who aren't in their own space/home and don't have DIY skill... don't have this advantage.
    (which is why I support buying your own "fix 'er upper"... if one has moderate DIY skill)

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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Yes. Many people forget that their earning also incurs taxes (40%?) on the highest dollars they earn.
    Which means one has to earn $10,000, pay taxes, just to clear $6000 to spend.
    Somebody making $50/hr.... that's 200 hours (5 weeks) to earn $6000 to spend.
    Labour & materials are often 1:1 on many projects, so that's a $12,000 project's labor.

    The option is that the owner/DIY person does their own labor... how many hours do they need to replicate a certain amount of "tradesperson" labour?
    That's the hard part.

    As an example, I recently had a quote from HomeDepot to put in hardwoods for our 600sf upstairs.
    HD quoted me $7000... $4000 labor, $3000 materials.
    The $4000 labor would cost me more like $6000 in earnings, with 33% going to taxes.

    If I make (say!) $40/hr... that's 150 hours at the office to cover that.
    Alternatively, I install it myself... which I did... I'm currently 8x10hr days in.
    I probably have 3x10hr days left.
    That will be a grand total of 11x10hr days, 110hrs.

    So... I'll spend 40 hours less... in the comfort of my own home... breaking where needed to hang out with my kids or help my wife.
    Rather than being at the office on weekends.

    Two ways to look at achieving the same task.
    But it does work better when you are doing DIY within your own home.
    And it does depend on one's own DIY skill & pace.

    People who aren't in their own space/home and don't have DIY skill... don't have this advantage.
    (which is why I support buying your own "fix 'er upper"... if one has moderate DIY skill)
    I'm right with you on this - and the example you give but what I'm hoping to do takes me outside of my house and ability.
    With the Carriage house. I don't have the skill to pour my own slab or build the frame etc. Once that's done and drywall is done. I'm pretty much good to go. I might spend a bit more on a plumber to do the tub/shower install, but sinks, light fixtures, floors, paint, siding, trim - I'm not paying anyone to do any of that.

    There's just certain things I can't do. I'll push my skill ability - and have. You have to do save money. it's worth buying an extra box of flooring as you learn and make a couple mistakes 'newbie DIY' mistakes.
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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    I'm right with you on this - and the example you give but what I'm hoping to do takes me outside of my house and ability.
    With the Carriage house. I don't have the skill to pour my own slab or build the frame etc. Once that's done and drywall is done. I'm pretty much good to go. I might spend a bit more on a plumber to do the tub/shower install, but sinks, light fixtures, floors, paint, siding, trim - I'm not paying anyone to do any of that.

    There's just certain things I can't do. I'll push my skill ability - and have. You have to do save money. it's worth buying an extra box of flooring as you learn and make a couple mistakes 'newbie DIY' mistakes.

    I'm right there with you on my home addition plans.
    The issue for me... no GC was interested when I wanted them to do foundation/walls/drywall and then leave at that.
    They want to rake... and the rake is when they take their 20% on high-end material finishes.
    So many of them want to be around for flooring & backsplashes & appliances...

    GCs are simple people.
    They want to know they are getting their 20% on $200k (the "whole-house" "lump sum").
    They also know they can get you for every "upgrade" - because that's usually materials.
    They aren't interesting in 20% on the $50k part.

    IF you can do it like you say... yes, you'll get the best bang-for-your-buck.
    Let us know if you find a GC that will do that! That's going to be the hard part.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    This totally makes sense. Personally... I'm one that believes it's the finishes that get you the income -not the fancy design. Especially in a rental. Most renters don't care if it's a box or has oodles of character. I get that changes a bit when you look to make it an Air B&B which we're tossing that idea around as well for the extra income. I'd much rather pick a higher end counter top than spend $5000 on a funky corner nook.
    As someone with a background in architecture and design, I just want to step in and say that good design is about more than tacking on "fancy" and "funky" elements. A good designer will get the most out of your space and budget limitations, so it's not something to be skimped on if you don't have experience with it yourself. There are 1000sf houses that function far better than some 2000sf houses thanks to a thoughtful, considered approach to design. Developing floor-plans is something most people feel they can do themselves, but most simply cant do it effectively and they end up with bigger, more expensive houses than they need because of poor, inefficient design. I agree that the superficial flourishes and "architectural features" are best left out, but a solid, functional layout will save you money and serve you better.

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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    Who ever thought a thread on carriage houses would be THIS interesting. If only I had half the skill or knowledge as you people...

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    Default Re: Anyone ever build a carriage house?

    I dont know what it's like on the West Coast, but here on the East Coast, it's hard as hell to find building supplies right now. Lumber is in short supply like I've never seen. I was just trying to build a deck on my house during the pandemic and I am still trying to get three more step treads to finish my steps. I usually stop into HD, Kent or Lowes once a week and everyone once in a while, I might get one tread step that's worth buying. Supply and demand usually determine prices so if there's less supply, expect prices to go up. I am sure I dont need to tell you this, but thought it was worth mentioning none the less.

    This wont affect your design but it could determine when you are going to build as you might have to wait for the lumber industry to rebound a bit. That, or you might not be having the same issues out your way that we are here right now and my post could be moot.
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