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Thread: 2020 Hall of Fame Class

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    Default Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopo View Post
    To start, the Hall of Fame is not and never really has been what some people think it should be. It already is the "Hall of Very Good" and is also the hall of FAME, not hall of GREATEST. It's always going to be about drawing a line somewhere, otherwise it's just a shrine to Gretzky and Orr and maybe another 2 or 3 guys. It isn't though, and there's a lot of arguable cases in there and out, and in my opinion there's room for a lot of players.

    Iggy seemed like a no brainer to me. Mogilny is overdue too and it's weird he didn't get in while Lowe did.

    The Oilers teams that Lowe was on ran away with scoring. Consistently top of the league in goals for, and usually not by a small margin. In terms of goals against? Middle of the pack. I'm honestly not sure how much of that dynasty had to do with his defensive play, or if another contemporaneous stay-at-home type could have managed to tag along for the ride in his stead. Couldn't tell you; I was a little kid at the tine and the available data isn't what we have today. How does his play stack up? I dunno. I have no doubt he was among the better defensive defenseman in his era, but so were a lot of guys over the years that weren't on historically great teams and not many of them get in to the Hall. He does have a remarkable number of Cups, and Cups seem to be a big criterion. But like, Semenko and McSorely have 2 Cups with those teams too, and also played an "important" role for the dynasty. Do they have a case now?

    I'm not mad at Hossa getting in. I love Hossa; the guy could do it all and reinvented himself as a 2-way player partway thorough his career. I remember a young Hossa in Ottawa being a skinny and exciting offensive player that could do borderline acrobatic maneuvers with the puck on his stick. By the time he made it to Pittsburgh he was a pretty big guy and had a lot more facets to his game. He managed 3 Cups. Pretty darn good career all told.

    I am a bit mad at Alfredsson not even being an afterthought. Consistently one of the best at his position for a large portion of his long career, great 2-way player, long time captain, probably still the player that most defines the Ottawa Senators, and more points in fewer games than Hossa or the Sedins, who apparently are all are (or are going to be according to Friedman) first ballot guys. Close to a point a game over 1250 games played into his 40s, and the second highest scoring Swede in NHL history behind only Sundin, despite starting his career at 23 years old. He has no Cup though, and none of the awards that the voters seem to value.
    That's just it, the people voting ARE old enough to remember what he was like on the ice because they either played with or against him, or reported on him. Long and short, they saw him play and knew his game. They didn't have to rely on stats from a page or just seeing highlights to know his game. They saw it first hand, night after night.

    I'm old enough to remember the Oilers, Jets, Whalers and Nordiques coming into the league in '79 and watching them play on TV. I grew up on the East Coast so it's not like I could go to live games. Thankfully the Oilers became the dynasty they did so they made the playoffs and were on TV a lot. I got to see a lot of Kevin Lowe growing up and as a goalie myself, I enjoyed watching the Defense and what they did.

    I'll say this again, Kevin Lowe was not a great offensive Dman but he was an excellent defenseman so what he brought most nights won't be seen on the stat sheet. Thankfully the ones voting watched his game instead of relying on the stat sheet to make their choice as to who gets in and who doesn't, versus the folks who are using the stat sheet to try and figure out why he got in at all.

    The fact that it took him this long to get in surprised me more than him getting in at all.

    I will say this, I hate what Kevin Lowe brought to the Oilers in his management role but his on ice performance was fun to watch, for those who enjoy the defensive side of the game.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: 2020 Hall of Fame Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    That's just it, the people voting ARE old enough to remember what he was like on the ice because they either played with or against him, or reported on him. Long and short, they saw him play and knew his game. They didn't have to rely on stats from a page or just seeing highlights to know his game. They saw it first hand, night after night.
    Not to take away from them too much because I think they're overall pretty great, but I'm not sure people historically agree with all of what the HHOF selection committee decides -- that's why there's discussions about selections and people saying "Hall of Very Good".

    I'm sure there's a reason it took him 20 years to get in despite the other guys on those teams being there a while now. We don't have analytics for his era as far as I know. He never finished better than 5th in Norris voting while he was playing (7.6% of the vote, only 2 1st place votes), which should show you where he was considered at the time. He apparently got votes only 4 times in 19 years. Internationally he had 2 appearances and neither went all that well. His career "similarity scores" on HockeyReference include Foote, who I suppose has a shot, Gordie Roberts, Ulf Samuelsson, Bob Baun, Derek Morris, and Brad Stuart. Again, no doubt he was a very good defensive defenseman, but I figure there were others that would never have gotten consideration because they don't have 6 Cups and didn't have all-time greats to lead the way. That's what it comes down to IMO -- there's only a couple of players with 6 or more Cups that aren't in the Hall. Until now I think it was Lowe, Claude Provost, Jean-Guy Talbot (speaking of low scoring defensemen with tons of Cups), and Ralph Backstrom. I'm sure they're all good players, but it's not exactly a murderer's row.
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