2020 Hall of Fame Class

[doulos]

So, Charlie Huddy next year?

[Axeman33]

So, Charlie Huddy next year?

Who knows at this point. Maybe. He was pretty good back in the day too. That being said, he didnt have any All Star game appearances and didn't win any personal awards in his career so that probably hurts his chances.

[rataylor22]

Lot of people have retconned how good Hossa is defensively considering he’s never received any major Selke consideration.

[PenguinHunter]

Lot of people have retconned how good Hossa is defensively considering he’s never received any major Selke consideration.

That is largely because of how the NHL awards the Selke award which we all know is never to the top defensive player in the NHL.

The people who determine the winner of the Selke award often put extra emphasis on:

- The Centre Position - its been a Centre that has won the award every year since 2003.
- Points - The writers that vote always look for the 'sexy option' and scores a lot of points that year as well as plays a solid defensive game.

Lets take a look at the Defensive Points Share (the number of points contributed by a player due to his defense)

2016-17 - Marian Hossa (DPS 2.6) (+17) Selke Winner Bergeron (DPS 1.7) (+2) Hossa even had more points that Bergeron that year - Maybe Hossa should have won the Selke in 2014-15

2006-07 - Marian Hossa (DPS 2.5) (+18) Selke Winner Brind'Amour (DPS 2.5) (+7) Hossa again had more points then Brind'Amour. Maybe if he was a Centre he would have won it this year.

[blayze]

Pretty mediocre class to be honest.

You know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel when you're inducting the likes of Lowe and Wilson lol

[The Comish]

Pretty mediocre class to be honest.

You know you're scraping the bottom of the barrel when you're inducting the likes of Lowe and Wilson lol

I've felt this way for many years. Axeman touched on it when he calls it the Hall of Pretty Good. One day, I would love to go through the HHOF players and create MY HHOF with the rest in what I might call Hall of Stars or something catchier - in the military, we would likely call it the Centre of Excellence, but I digress, lol!

[TrailerParkFlyers]

I like both Lowe and Wilson getting in and both are deserving.

Mogilny misses out again.

Let's be honest, this is the Hall of Pretty Good more than a Hall of Fame and everyone who got in this year is pretty good at least, if not more.

This sums it up perfectly for me. It is the Hall of Pretty Good and Lowe and Wilson were pretty good.

[blayze]

In my opinion there should be a limit on the number of years you're eligible to get in - call it 5 or something. If after that long you still haven't gotten in... IT PROBABLY MEANS YOU WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

At this rate, we'll be inducting Tyler Bozak for the class of 2053...

[davidgoodburn]

In my opinion there should be a limit on the number of years you're eligible to get in - call it 5 or something. If after that long you still haven't gotten in... IT PROBABLY MEANS YOU WEREN'T GOOD ENOUGH!

At this rate, we'll be inducting Tyler Bozak for the class of 2053...

Ray Whitney for class of 2030- Whitney has more points than D.Sedin so maybe he'll take his spot next year in the HOVG

[chuckcouples]

Lets take a look at the Defensive Points Share (the number of points contributed by a player due to his defense)

2014-15 - Marian Hossa (DPS 2.6) (+17) Selke Winner Bergeron (DPS 1.7) (+2) Hossa even had more points that Bergeron that year - Maybe Hossa should have won the Selke in 2014-15

2006-07 - Marian Hossa (DPS 2.5) (+18) Selke Winner Brind'Amour (DPS 2.5) (+7) Hossa again had more points then Brind'Amour. Maybe if he was a Centre he would have won it this year.

Come on Penguin Hunter, you are better than this. If you want to make a point, then please use useful data to try and make it. Defensive Point Shares is not a stat that tells us anything about a player's defensive performance or ability.

Here is its calculation:

(proportion of team time on ice) x (proportion of team marginal goals against assigned to skaters) x (position adjustment) x (team marginal goals against) + (plus/minus adjustment) adjusted to total points earned by the team.

Based on this calculation, Defensive Point Shares is simply a function of team points, ice time, +/- and position. To back up this claim, I looked into some stats for the 2006/07 season. What was noted defensive specialist, Thomas Vanek's DPS in 2006/07? It was 2.7 good for 6th in the NHL among forwards behind noted defensive forwards Jaromir Jagr (3.2), Daniel Alfredsson (3.0), Henrik Sedin (2.8), Daniel Sedin (2.8), and Teemu Selanne (2.7) and just ahead of 8th place finisher Dany Heatley. Hold up, these guys were not known for their defense, they were just guys who played a lot and had good +/- which all fancy stat experts say is a very flawed stat.

[PenguinHunter]

Come on Penguin Hunter, you are better than this. If you want to make a point, then please use useful data to try and make it. Defensive Point Shares is not a stat that tells us anything about a player's defensive performance or ability.

Here is its calculation:

(proportion of team time on ice) x (proportion of team marginal goals against assigned to skaters) x (position adjustment) x (team marginal goals against) + (plus/minus adjustment) adjusted to total points earned by the team.

Based on this calculation, Defensive Point Shares is simply a function of team points, ice time, +/- and position. To back up this claim, I looked into some stats for the 2006/07 season. What was noted defensive specialist, Thomas Vanek's DPS in 2006/07? It was 2.7 good for 6th in the NHL among forwards behind noted defensive forwards Jaromir Jagr (3.2), Daniel Alfredsson (3.0), Henrik Sedin (2.8), Daniel Sedin (2.8), and Teemu Selanne (2.7) and just ahead of 8th place finisher Dany Heatley. Hold up, these guys were not known for their defense, they were just guys who played a lot and had good +/- which all fancy stat experts say is a very flawed stat.

You know what... you are right Chuck... I am better than this. I watch the games and from my own eyes I see that Hossa is worth of the Hall of Fame. And I watch and know that the Selke is not awarded to the best defensive forward in the NHL... there is more to it than that.

My apologies for finding a couple stats that showed that Hossa was better defensively than then Selke winners in those years. That was more directed to those that rely heavily on the stats as opposed to actually watching the game.

[Pengwin7]

Selke (voting) is probably as flawed (if more flawed) as any stat in hockey... and yet it does capture a lot.
As does +/-.
As does DPS.

While I like *some* of the Professional Hockey Writers Association (PHWA)... a lot of them are so busy putting together there article at night that they aren't fine tuned on the game.
All people get 24 hours in their day.
And all hockey fans *might* be able to watch 1 or 2 full games every night.
This means that even the most die-hard hockey fan can watch a player, from each of 30+ teams, if balanced evenly over 180 regular season nights, play maybe 10-20 times in a season.
Asterik. So....

I think Ryan O'Reilly got a grand total of 3 votes for Selke in 2017-2018 as a C1 of the Sabres... where he was -20 something.
And then Ryan O'Reilly gets like 140 votes for Selke in 2018-2019 as the C1 of the Blues... where he was +20 or something.
He didn't change that much as a player... but the numbers (+/-) and team success does have a MASSIVE impact on what most people use to value players.
It's rather impressive that 3/140+ PWHAs in 2017-2018 saw that value in O'Reilly... and it also goes to justify what so many of the other PWHAs didn't see.

Selke voting is often this sort of trickle-in effect, where years & years of solid play is finally rewarded once a player's stats match up with what we see.
ROR being case-in-point here.

And so Hossa was finally upvoted after years of great defensive play.
I don't think his play with Chicago (Selke-wise) was anymore amazing than his previous years... but that's when/where people started to give him there votes.

Pretty much all hockey statistics can be reasoned as flawed.
There 5 players on the ice... and they all have some impact on each other.
We've seen a lot of player piggyback stats... and somebody can nitpick the stats where a player got them... but perhaps was the piggybacker.
That said - stats have to be churned positively in some way, by some one... and there IS reason why guys like Gretzky and Orr and Lidstrom had great +/-... they were the major impacters and made those around them better.
Whether it's DPS or +/-... I think the same could be said about Hossa.
There's guys that will justify stats, and guys that can be used to call stats "flawed". (inferior linemates or inferior D-partners, like Jeff Schultz, usually)

No complete right on hockey stats.
No complete wrong on hockey stats.
No complete right on Selke voting.
No complete wrong on Selke voting.
Understand the player, understand the stat, and you have a really good full picture.
These things can't be poo-pooed in one full direction or the other. Context is everything.

[rataylor22]

“If you don’t think Hossa is a HOFer, you’re just a highlight watcher”

*Uses +/- as the basis of an argument, doesn’t even separate out the EV +/-*

“Context is everything, you have to understand the stats”

Ok.

[chuckcouples]

You know what... you are right Chuck... I am better than this. I watch the games and from my own eyes I see that Hossa is worth of the Hall of Fame. And I watch and know that the Selke is not awarded to the best defensive forward in the NHL... there is more to it than that.

My apologies for finding a couple stats that showed that Hossa was better defensively than then Selke winners in those years. That was more directed to those that rely heavily on the stats as opposed to actually watching the game.

I am not arguing with the whether they choose the right Selke Award winner or whether or not Hossa deserved it more than the winner in certain years. All I am saying is that DPS says nothing at all about a player's defensive performance. Trying to use that stat as a way to show defensive prowess is false. DPS is solely a measure a player's time on ice, +/- and position. These three things determine what percentage of a team's points (wins + ties/otl) the player was on the ice for. The DPS of all players on a team add up to the team's points earned that season. This is what the "share" in DPS means.

Let's take the following hypothetical example. Players A, B and C are three forwards who play together for every minute of their season. Players A & B forecheck, backcheck and play great in the defensive zone while Player C hangs out at the far blue line whenever the puck is in their defensive zone. Let's assume A & B are so good defensively that this line plays 20 minutes per night and they all end up at +30 for the season. All 3 players will have the exact same Defensive Player Share at the end of the season.

I too think Hossa should be in the Hall of Fame. I also think he was a very good defensive minded winger in the 2nd half of his career. I just think you should have said that by watching you games you believe that Hossa is good instead of trying to use a stat such as DPS to back up your thoughts.

[Hoopo]

To start, the Hall of Fame is not and never really has been what some people think it should be. It already is the "Hall of Very Good" and is also the hall of FAME, not hall of GREATEST. It's always going to be about drawing a line somewhere, otherwise it's just a shrine to Gretzky and Orr and maybe another 2 or 3 guys. It isn't though, and there's a lot of arguable cases in there and out, and in my opinion there's room for a lot of players.

Iggy seemed like a no brainer to me. Mogilny is overdue too and it's weird he didn't get in while Lowe did.

The Oilers teams that Lowe was on ran away with scoring. Consistently top of the league in goals for, and usually not by a small margin. In terms of goals against? Middle of the pack. I'm honestly not sure how much of that dynasty had to do with his defensive play, or if another contemporaneous stay-at-home type could have managed to tag along for the ride in his stead. Couldn't tell you; I was a little kid at the tine and the available data isn't what we have today. How does his play stack up? I dunno. I have no doubt he was among the better defensive defenseman in his era, but so were a lot of guys over the years that weren't on historically great teams and not many of them get in to the Hall. He does have a remarkable number of Cups, and Cups seem to be a big criterion. But like, Semenko and McSorely have 2 Cups with those teams too, and also played an "important" role for the dynasty. Do they have a case now?

I'm not mad at Hossa getting in. I love Hossa; the guy could do it all and reinvented himself as a 2-way player partway thorough his career. I remember a young Hossa in Ottawa being a skinny and exciting offensive player that could do borderline acrobatic maneuvers with the puck on his stick. By the time he made it to Pittsburgh he was a pretty big guy and had a lot more facets to his game. He managed 3 Cups. Pretty darn good career all told.

I am a bit mad at Alfredsson not even being an afterthought. Consistently one of the best at his position for a large portion of his long career, great 2-way player, long time captain, probably still the player that most defines the Ottawa Senators, and more points in fewer games than Hossa or the Sedins, who apparently are all are (or are going to be according to Friedman) first ballot guys. Close to a point a game over 1250 games played into his 40s, and the second highest scoring Swede in NHL history behind only Sundin, despite starting his career at 23 years old. He has no Cup though, and none of the awards that the voters seem to value.