Subban or Ghost... who sucks more?

[ween10x]

I am a fed up Ghost owner and PK owner offering me a 1 for 1 trade...Pk is equally as bad, who do you think has the better chance of becoming relevant this year? I am thinking of holding Ghost, he's been on a little bit better run of late....Thoughts?

G,A,PPP, Hits, blocks, shots PIM

[stevegamer]

Gostisbehere more likely to be relevant. Younger, doing better now, situation could improve with a trade, even if he went to say, NJ.

Subban isn't getting dealt again, so there are fewer ways things can improve.

[hockeymanG23]

Gostisbehere more likely to be relevant. Younger, doing better now, situation could improve with a trade, even if he went to say, NJ.

Subban isn't getting dealt again, so there are fewer ways things can improve.

Agreed.

[Godin]

I'd keep Ghost. He is the better guy here offensively. If he gets trading, I think he's golden. In the meantime, Subban, who I do own, is having his worst season and frankly, after watching a couple of Jersey games, he looked aweful.

[lucafen4]

keep ghost here.

[Pengwin7]

G,A,PPP, Hits, blocks, shots PIM

^Critical.

per title: Ghost sucks more.

so:
go with Subban.
And this isn't close, IMO.

Subban will at LEAST give you some HIT, BLK, and PIM.
[Ghost is NOT giving you HIT... or BLK... or PIM... never has, never will, too small, doesn't play that way... and his ice-time is down to a career low 18min/gp... as PHI only gives him 3rd pairing minutes.]
AND... you don't have +/-... which is Subban's real anchor in leagues that count that.

re: Peripherals.
Subban: 68sog, 34pim, 35hit, 36blk
Ghost: 43sog, 12pim, 10hit, 22blk
Subban >> Ghost in peripherals.


So the question is... are we ABSOLUTELY SURE that Ghost can significantly outpoint Subban R.O.S.???

re: Points
Subban has been VERY unlucky this season.
He has 2g in 68sog... that's just bad luck.
And his 3a in 30gp... also bad luck, NJ forwards have been stinky bad.

NJ is 20th in the NHL in SF/G... with 30.8.
NJ is 30th in the NHL in GF/G... with 2.09.
That's a 6.8% shooting... only CBJ and LA are that low.
And the NJ forwards, collectively, are/should be better shooters than what is in CBJ & LA.

Pure points, yes - Ghost for the year.
HIT, BLK, PIM... PK... and eventually the PIM will start to roll thru frustration.

Summary:
Subban for the HIT/BLK/PIM... if the points happen to come... he'll be a CLEAR winner in this trade.

[Axeman33]

I dont like either guy but I do agree with P7 here. Subban cant score to save his life but at least he offers peripherals.

[ericdaoust]

Subban > Ghost

Worst case PK can still get you the tough categories that you need from your defensemen. Best case is he regains some of that offensive touch and becomes roto awesomeness again.

[2014olympicgold]

Ghost sucks more than Subban

New Jersey sucks more than Philly

As a hockey player, Ghost is actually not good at all. He's literally in the NHL for a full season because of his contract. He's more like top AHL defenseman who would constantly get called up for injury fill in.

[Pengwin7]

As a hockey player, Ghost is actually not good at all. He's literally in the NHL for a full season because of his contract. He's more like top AHL defenseman who would constantly get called up for injury fill in.

That's a little extreme (& poor), I think.
I rag on the guy because he's overhyped when people talk about him as a 50pt, first pairing, PP1 defenseman.
But he's definitely somewhere in the D3/D4/D5 range for quality for the NHL... and he's a decent alternate-style PP guy.
He's a solid 3-on-3 OT D-man.

PHI simply is stocked with better D-men (all of Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, even Niskanen > Ghost)
They don't need him and should trade him.
He's "terrible" on the PP1... my main rag on him...
But he's "OK" overall in the NHL.
I would even say he's "good" when his usage is that of a sheltered 3rd pairing D.
Definitely better than a description of: "not good at all".

He's got positive 5-on-5 SAT over last three seasons... that's worth ~ $4m in the NHL.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?repo...t=shotAttempts

[ericdaoust]

I'm definitely of the mindset that Gostisbehere is an NHL-level player. He's flawed but brings value to the table. He just isn't doing well in meeting people's production expectations.

[2014olympicgold]

Corsi/FF is a meh piece of evidence for D-men. Like Marc-Andre Bergeron had a CF% Rel of +8% over his like last like 100 games. But when Ghost gets the puck with a bit of space, he does move the puck out of the zone.

Ghost is a 5/6/7Dman offensive specialist who can't QB a PP. His PP production isn't based off his QB-ing skills, it's been off the back of Giroux, Voracek and now Konecny. He's been lucky that the team that deployed him was Philly who, at the beginning of Ghost's career, Flyers PP was automatic. And even as the yrs went on, the Flyers prospered off of drawing penalties and getting more PPs while having a good PP%. Now as the higher end speed of the Flyers has slowed down, they aren't drawing as many calls, while still performing at a good PP%, lowering PP points across the board.

Ghost at 4.5mill in the modern NHL is a live-able contract, but teams can't spend 4.5mill on a 3rd line PP specialist in the future. And once the Flyers need the space, or move on from SG, he'll be put on a team to run a PP. And he just can't run one. So he'll be on a team playing 3rd line minutes, not defending well, not on the PK, being a "shot" on a PP2, while hoping a PP2 forward can QB the unit from a half wall while Ghost sets up for a shot.

With Provorov, Myers, Hagg, Sanaheim, and Morin on the roster, Ghost is just a weird skill set where he can't be on this team longer, and his good skills don't mesh with a lot of teams. PP2 D-man who can't play PK, who can't run the PP effectively, and who shouldn't be leaned on for defensive responsibilities.

Now this can all change with work, maybe he sees the writing on the wall and works on things. But he can't keep going forward with his skill set without trying to broaden them. And a lot of the stuff seems too be just "who he is", so I have little faith on him turning into a full PPQB, or being a better defender to become a solid 3rd line guy.

[Skippy]

Two answers to this.

Ghost sucks more because he has sucked for longer which also means anyone who thought he’d do anything deserve some of the blame for believing in magic beans.

Subban sucks more because nobody saw this kind of futility coming and his expectations in NJ and for the Devils in general were large.

[Godin]

Subban has gone 18 games without a point. That is just crazy and an indication of how lost he looks.

[Pengwin7]

Kevin Shattenkirk (age 30) 18/19 w/NYR... was a similar version... of PK Subban (age 30) 19/20 w/NJ.
Food for thought.