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Thread: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

  1. #1
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    Dobber Sports Prodigy

    Default Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    First of all, apologies if this isn't the right sub, I couldn't see anything more appropriate.

    I'm the commissioner of a dynasty league, we have 16 teams right now and we're looking into doing an expansion of two teams next year. We have a plan over the next 10-15 years to become a 32 team league, right now though we're taking it slow. Our core is very tight, we've had a few people come and go but there is a group that have stuck with it from the start and a committee that is dedicated to ensuring the league runs for many years to come. As part of this we think it's best to start our expansion next year and I'm calling out to Dobberforums for a little help/advice on how you guys would do it.

    Right now we have 4 divisions and 2 conferences (4 teams in each), we plan to make it so the two new teams go one in either conference making one of the divisions from either conference have 5. My main question I want to ask is:

    - We have an active roster of 22 (3LW,RW,C, 1F, 5D, 5B, 2G) and a pretty extensive minor system which will increase next year too, no cap. How many players would you put as 'keepers' for the expansion. My original thought was 10 (with all minors being ineligible), what say you?

    - We believe one pick per team for the new managers is sufficient, this would give them 16 players and they would need to pick up 6 more from free agency/waiver wire, do you think this is fair? It means everyone loses 2 players.

    - Given that they'll be starting from scratch in the minor system we believe the 4th highest lottery winner odds would be fair. Where they come in the first round would be where they pick each round for the rest. Would you say this is fair and do you think we should give them the same opportunity for the following year?

    - Anything else you think would be a good feature to include/advice/tips etc would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to seeing any response - I want to make sure the expansion is as solid as possible.

    Jay
    16T Dynasty - 22 Act - 15 Min

    G, A, PPP, SHP, SOG, BLK, HIT, HT, FOW| W, L, GA, SV, SHO, G, A

    Active:
    C: A.Matthews, C.McDavid, J.Hughes, P-L.Dubois
    LW: M.Tkachuk, C.Keller, L.Crouse, T,Hertl,
    R.N-Hopkins
    RW: A.Mantha, J.Anderson, K.Kakko, A.Svechnikov
    D: C.Ceci, M.Heskainen, C.Makar, A.Larsson, M.Dumba, J.Trouba
    G: A.Vasilevsky, C.Hart, J.Binnington

    Minors:
    C: D.Cozens, R.Kupari, J.Studnicka, E.Barratt
    LW: M.Boldy, M.Comtois, A.Texier
    RW: D.Batherson, S.Matheos, O.Tippett, V.Podkolzin, S.Holmstrom
    D: ​Q.Hughes, J.Woo
    G: I.Sorokin, L.Dostal

  2. #2
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    Dobber Sports Titan

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    Yes, your ideas sound really good... anything that mirrors what the NHL has done in expansion years should be good.
    Here is the 2000 NHL expansion draft when NHL added 29th & 30th teams (MIN & CBJ):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NHL_Expansion_Draft

    *Teams declare all minor-eligible players (protected)
    *Teams protect 10 of their others. Put Max on Positions... I'd say teams MUST protect: 4-7F, 2-4D, 1-2G. (Recent NHL protection was 6F:3D:1G, FWIW)
    *I would do a coin flip for the draft position, non-snake. Winner of coin flip can choose whether they want to be team "A" or "B"
    a) Expansion draft picks as: A-B,A-B,A-B,etc
    b) They can do their prospect pick first 1-4:B, 1-5:A... 2-4:B, 2-5A
    So... a team either gets the first choosings of PRO players... or they get the first choosings in prospect rounds. Benefit for each team. Winner chooses which they prefer firsties in.

    You DO need to put these rules in place soon.
    Some teams in your league may, for example, have THREE really strong goalies.
    If you tell them they can only "keep two"... you need to give them time to move one of their assets and get something back.

    I've been in bad leagues that come up with "expansion rules" a few days before an actual expansion... and somebody stockpiled at a position gets hosed.
    Good luck - you are on the right track!!!

  3. #3
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    Dobber Sports Blue-Chipper

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    I did the same in a league this y but we expanded from 20 to 22. I thought a lot about the right numbers. 10 was a small number, I put together a two good teams with this number from the non protected players. I did the same with 11, 12 etc.

    I obviously didn't want to hand the newcomer managers a good team, because the original owners would have been pissed for the right reasons.

    So finally I came to the conclusion that we go with two options:
    A - 11F, 4D, 1G
    B - 13 skater, 2G

    They put together two bottom teams, but they aren't the worse teams in the league, obviously they will be rebuilding slowly, but it is an excinting task.

    I'd say after 6 months of our expansion draft that protect 10 is not enough, our protect 15/16 is much. Your right number will be between the two, around 12-13.

  4. #4
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    Dobber Sports Prodigy

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    Thanks for both of your opinions, both of them were really helpful! I'll let you guys know all the rules we end up going with and post them here
    16T Dynasty - 22 Act - 15 Min

    G, A, PPP, SHP, SOG, BLK, HIT, HT, FOW| W, L, GA, SV, SHO, G, A

    Active:
    C: A.Matthews, C.McDavid, J.Hughes, P-L.Dubois
    LW: M.Tkachuk, C.Keller, L.Crouse, T,Hertl,
    R.N-Hopkins
    RW: A.Mantha, J.Anderson, K.Kakko, A.Svechnikov
    D: C.Ceci, M.Heskainen, C.Makar, A.Larsson, M.Dumba, J.Trouba
    G: A.Vasilevsky, C.Hart, J.Binnington

    Minors:
    C: D.Cozens, R.Kupari, J.Studnicka, E.Barratt
    LW: M.Boldy, M.Comtois, A.Texier
    RW: D.Batherson, S.Matheos, O.Tippett, V.Podkolzin, S.Holmstrom
    D: ​Q.Hughes, J.Woo
    G: I.Sorokin, L.Dostal

  5. #5
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    The Magnificent One

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    Personally, I think these rules are brutal. 16x10=160 protected, plus 150 or more minors also protected.

    If I were running this, I'd take the time to run a quick/dirty mock expansion draft using your rules. And then I'd look at the two expansion teams. And then I'd ask myself - how many years would it take to turn this team into a playoff team. If the answer is more than 3 years (which is a lifetime in fantasy), then I'd say you are missing the mark.

    Using the NHL as a model is not a great idea, IMO, because NHL owners and GM's are invested in their teams for the long-run. Fantasy GM's drop like flies, especially if they have a team with no hope...My advice would be don't make teams that are so crappy nobody will want to take them over if the original GM quits.

    I'd also be extremely concerned if you allowed goalie hoarding. If all 16 teams keep their two goalies, and all goalie prospects are also kept...then you are basically telling the expansion team that they need to draft a goalie this year and then wait and hope that they make the NHL in five to seven years. I would not allow a team to protect more than two goalies including goalie prospects.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    Having become a replacement commissioner at various times when others have failed to do their jobs, quit the league or been removed, I know that having divisions of different sizes is bad. I'd see if you can schedule this adequately with just conferences. If you go with multiple size divisions, it becomes very cumbersome. MLB used to have 2 leagues no divisions, and there no reason you necessarily need divisions now. I'd plan to get to 20 with no divisions, then look at options to going straight to 24 when the time comes.

    Using real world expansion doesn't work great as a pure framework, as those are business ventures that appreciate in value, and simply generate wealth. So pay in is high, and you take what you can get as far as players, to reap the franchise value growth over the long haul. You can't sell a fantasy team, so emphasize fairness. As the poster above me said, fantasy owners are in it for a shorter haul than a real team owner, and they also get to lose money while doing it, unlike real owners.

    Giving them no minors selections is atrocious, and is something that you shouldn't entertain. There should be limits on how many minors players they can protect, and it can be a large number, but the expansion teams should start with something there from the other squads. They should also get to fill their minors up with minors eligible free agents, just like you will have them do with the main squad.

    Good ideas others mentioned:
    Allowing one team to pick first in majors section, and the other in the minors section of main draft.
    -I think there should be 2 sections in expansion draft as well, and you can use this same positioning there.

    Making sure you limit goalie hoarding.
    - Crystal clear as written.

    Running a simulation of what teams look like with different protection schemes.
    - This is important, and develop a methodology you can use in the future when dealing with who the mock protected players are. BEcause what works well now, may not work well int he future, and you want to be able to tweak it if there are more teams coming in at once, roster rule changes, or even to use in a contraction draft.

    Giving the existing teams time to adjust rosters for protection limits
    - This goes for all rule changes. You need to figure the stuff out in advance on when they will take effect, if you can. Sometimes you can't - I had to deal with a baseball trade in a NL only league where a player was dealt to an AL team (going out of our player pool) , and then sent on to a different NL team (back into the player pool) on the same day, but it was not announced originally as 3 team trade, so it was two separate transactions per MLB. I needed to make a ruling on that.

    Good luck, and ask us to look for holes when you are ready to finalize the rules, as someone may se something you don't.
    10 team Head-to-head true dynasty. Roster 33, draft 2, cut down before season. Start 1 G, 1 backup G, 6 D, 12 F arranged in 4 lines of 3. Only categories that matter are Goals, Assists, Save% with a shutout bonus. Having NHL teammates helps.

    G: Bobrovsky
    Backup G: F Andersen
    D: Ekblad, Yandle, M Reilly, Carlson, Letang, Makar
    F1: Couturier, Giroux, JT Miller
    F2: Schiefele, Wheeler, MacKinnon
    F3: Stamkos, Point, Guentzel
    F4: Bertuzzi, Tavares, Seguin

    Bench:
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    D: Barrie, Heiskanen, Klingberg, Morissey, Weegar
    F: Bailey, Benn, Johnsson, Labanc, Mikheyev, Necas, Pavelski, Voracek
    Reserve: Datsyuk

  7. #7
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    Dobber Sports Prodigy

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    Thanks you two, appreciate you being honest about it all - definitely helps me make these decisions.

    Just before you posted I spoke with my committee about giving minors - because as you said, it wouldn't be fair at all. My suggestion was 1 or 2 chosen by the GM of that team, however, it might be good to do a draft for that too. I also spoke with the committee about the amount of people. I'm personally ok with 10 - as an example the new teams would end up with one of Binnington, Hertl, Dubois, Dumba, Trouba or Larsson from my team - that's with 11 keepers.

    We've set it that you can't bring up minors / send minors back down (for example Makar in my team) after the start of the playoffs. This means if I want to protect Makar by sending him to the minors, I'd have to risk losing one of my best defencemen for the playoffs etc. It also means I'd need to use a minor keeper on him (if I went down that route).

    I'm going to start on a mock draft tonight based on my opinions, then ask my 3 trade committee people to do the same for different amount of keepers - cross reference each team to decide which seems like a good fit - will keep you in the loop.

    Thanks again for everyones help, I'll be sure to finalize all my rules here before officially announcing them.
    16T Dynasty - 22 Act - 15 Min

    G, A, PPP, SHP, SOG, BLK, HIT, HT, FOW| W, L, GA, SV, SHO, G, A

    Active:
    C: A.Matthews, C.McDavid, J.Hughes, P-L.Dubois
    LW: M.Tkachuk, C.Keller, L.Crouse, T,Hertl,
    R.N-Hopkins
    RW: A.Mantha, J.Anderson, K.Kakko, A.Svechnikov
    D: C.Ceci, M.Heskainen, C.Makar, A.Larsson, M.Dumba, J.Trouba
    G: A.Vasilevsky, C.Hart, J.Binnington

    Minors:
    C: D.Cozens, R.Kupari, J.Studnicka, E.Barratt
    LW: M.Boldy, M.Comtois, A.Texier
    RW: D.Batherson, S.Matheos, O.Tippett, V.Podkolzin, S.Holmstrom
    D: ​Q.Hughes, J.Woo
    G: I.Sorokin, L.Dostal

  8. #8
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    Dobber Sports Ace

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    This is a really interesting thread guys. One league I'm in has floated the idea of expansion and the commishes have been wrestling with how we might do it IF we decide to go down that road.

    Lots of great feedback (above). Certainly gives us something to think about.

  9. #9
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    Dobber Sports Prodigy

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Any thoughts on these kinds of teams - i'm planning to do a few more scenarios and obviously this is all opinion based - also was a little rushed as the occasional missed player isn't going to make a huge difference. At the moment I did one which is 9 Skaters and 1 Goalie, or 10 skaters. The second is 7forwards, 3defence and 1goalie

    Which do you guys prefer - do you think it makes the teams relatively balanced? What would you like to see my try next
    16T Dynasty - 22 Act - 15 Min

    G, A, PPP, SHP, SOG, BLK, HIT, HT, FOW| W, L, GA, SV, SHO, G, A

    Active:
    C: A.Matthews, C.McDavid, J.Hughes, P-L.Dubois
    LW: M.Tkachuk, C.Keller, L.Crouse, T,Hertl,
    R.N-Hopkins
    RW: A.Mantha, J.Anderson, K.Kakko, A.Svechnikov
    D: C.Ceci, M.Heskainen, C.Makar, A.Larsson, M.Dumba, J.Trouba
    G: A.Vasilevsky, C.Hart, J.Binnington

    Minors:
    C: D.Cozens, R.Kupari, J.Studnicka, E.Barratt
    LW: M.Boldy, M.Comtois, A.Texier
    RW: D.Batherson, S.Matheos, O.Tippett, V.Podkolzin, S.Holmstrom
    D: ​Q.Hughes, J.Woo
    G: I.Sorokin, L.Dostal

  10. #10
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    Dobber Sports Jedi

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    I think the nine skaters and a goalie seemed to yield the better teams, and it gives the protectors a little more control even though they're still losing their 11th player.
    Capped writer for DobberHockey. Find the latest articles here: http://www.dobberhockey.com/Table/Hockey-home/Capped/
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  11. #11
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    Dobber Sports Initiate

    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    I think it would be a good idea to give the teams an option for their protection lists like the NHL does. The league I commish did an expansion draft last summer from 22 to 24 teams. Most teams kept 6 forwards, 3 defense and a goalie. A few did the 9 skaters and 1 goalie.
    24 Team H2H Pts Cap Dyn
    4C 4LW 4RW 6D 1G 4B 27M

    G (1) A (1) +/- (.25) PIM (.05) SOG (.05) PPP (.5) HIT (.05) BLK (.05) FOW (.01)
    W (1.75) GA (-1) SV (.1) SO (3)

    C: Seguin, Kuznetsov, Trocheck, Johansen, Kostin
    LW: Benn, Lindblom, Dickinson, Kubalik
    RW: Tuch, Fabbri, Bjorkstrand, Terry
    D: Klingberg, Chabot, Girard, Spurgeon, C Miller, Theodore, Marino
    G: Hellebuyck, Berdin

    C: Elvenes, Vorobyev, Spacek, Jones, Eyssimont, Daviddson, Shvyrev
    LW: Dorofyev, Koivula, Shalagin, Dugan, Cates, Ranta
    RW: Volkov, Fortier, Evans, Blichfeld, Legare, Tieksola
    D: Laaksonen, Gilbert, Pilut
    G: Samsonov, Sorokin, Knight, Zagidulin


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Expansion Help (Commissioners?)

    The big question you need to ask when making your expansion rules is how competitive do you want the expansion teams to be. Once you know that answer you can figure out how many players each team should protect.

    Would a team made up of the 12th best player on every team be competitive or would it have to be their 8th best player? That should not be that hard to figure out and then adjust this number to get the level of competitiveness you want the expansion teams to have.

    Depending on how deep your farm teams are, it would probably make sense to have the expansion teams pick a prospect from each team as well. If you want the expansion teams to be "rebuilding" teams, then you might consider something like teams can protect 15 pro team guys and 3 prospects or they can protect 10 pro team guys and 5 prospects. Give GMs an option.

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