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Thread: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

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    BranDOOM's Avatar
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    Default Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Hi Dobber community,

    Appreciate your feedback on this topic. I am the commish for the league in signature and have a bit of a pickle on how to best move forward.

    In my league setup, we often see what looks like a lopsided trade when either waivers are involved (because moves are limited to 6 per season, outside of IR/IR+ replacements), and keepers (bottom feeder teams offload more proven players for cheap keepers near year end).

    Trades are essentially never veto'd. One of the unwritten rules is that everyone has their own value on a trade, multiple layers in our set up, and often GM's can share their rationale even if it looks brutal. We also have a 'circle of friends' rule that I implemented to circumvent this, where GMs outside of the trade can protest and ask for a review. Circle of friends includes commish, GMs outside of trade, plus GMs involved of the trade/negotiations rationale provided. We review and make a decision collectively (3 individual, majority rule) make a decision to approve/decline.

    Long story short.. the challenge today. I have one GM who trades a lot, but also often loses the deal and its clear to most its a definite loss. Because this GM is active, his team is pillaged early in the season. This poses a problem that's not outside of the league rules.. where GMs feel that if you dont include yourself in trading with said GM, a few teams instantly fix draft problems/improve team noticeably and launch to top positions.. while the rest of the league hold to current rosters.

    As commish, nothing being done here is outside of the rules, but its clear that this is a concern because of the frequency this occurs. I have chatted with the GM previously about 'fair trading', but the lopsided trades still occur and its not in any way in collusion, etc.. just a very different opinion on whats fair/wanted in a trade.

    How do I best move forward here?

    Thanks!
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    does everyone know each other? Is this a pay league?
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    does everyone know each other? Is this a pay league?
    great question, pay league and GMs know each other simply from being in the league together for last several years.
    Keeper Team: $300 Auction draft, 10 F, 5 D, 3 G, 5 Bench
    Keep For Following Year: 3 F, 2 D, 1 G


    11 Team, Rotisserie G A PTS +/- PIMS PPG PPA SHP GWG W GAA SV% SO

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    D:
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    G:
    Campbell, Fleury, Knight, Quick
    IR: *Cirelli, *DeBrusk

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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Sounds like the guy is just bad at evaluating his fantasy assets. Either deal with it or ask him to leave because he upsets the balance so much with his crap trades.
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    agree with tweetdrivr. If it's gotten so bad as to consistently mess with the structure of the league, might be time to nicely break it to him that it's time to go. Fantasy hockey should be about more than being the first guy to bilk the sucker out of his good players in October
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    More disclosure here is important.

    1. Post his last 3-years of trades, please.
    2. Include the name of each team trading with him.
    3. Post a list of his direct relationship with each of his past trade partners.

    I speculate that this will shine a lot of information on issues with his trading.

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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    More disclosure here is important.

    1. Post his last 3-years of trades, please.
    2. Include the name of each team trading with him.m
    3. Post a list of his direct relationship with each of his past trade partners.

    I speculate that this will shine a lot of information on issues with his trading.
    Sounds like you suspect collusion eh?
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by tweetdrivr View Post
    Sounds like you suspect collusion eh?
    Absolutely not. (and I don't appreciate you suggesting that's what I suspect.)

    I hate that word: Collusion.
    There's no point in discussing it. I wish people would stop using that word, "collusion", as the sole reason for/against veto.
    Trying to "prove" or "disprove" collusion is such a massive undertaking... what - are we going to play all-powerful-judge and collect facts & evidence?!
    I mean... c'mon... this is fantasy hockey.
    "Collusion" is this full-information type of word where it it only makes sense to talk about it as a yes/no qualifier... and that's IF one is granted full information... which one never gets... and shouldn't even pursue... for something such as fantasy hockey! Fantasy hockey!

    There IS a time & place for a veto, though - without need for talk of "collusion".
    And, that is when there is an unbalanced trade that threatens the integrity (and/or fun) of a league.
    So... this is a good time for commissioner & league to investigate it.
    To do that... one has to establish patterns, advantages, disadvantages, history, and extrapolate towards future likelihoods.

    Again - veto can be considered without need to investigate collusion.
    This should be more of a "Why are these trades happening? Who is Benefiting? and How can we make this situation better?"

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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    At this point you know what this GM brings to the table so either find a replacement or accept the consequences. I understand going the veto route but it doesn't fix the incompetence problem. You're still going to have a few teams benefiting a lot from some bad deals.


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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Agree with Peng's assessment, need to see a record of transaction to look for trends.

    Being active is one thing, but being active and detrimental to the league is another.

    Sounds more like this GM doesn't really fit the mold of what you are looking for in this league.

    If he just wants to make trades for the sake of making trades the one year free yahoo pool's might be more up his alley.

    It's almost like sitting down a new poker player at a high stakes table, there's a certain table etiquette that experienced players know, where someone who is new will just play within the confines of the rules but make some questionable decisions that affects that overall atmosphere of the game.
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    YOU hate the word “collusion?” ??? I had a toast a couple years ago with Malkin’s parents in the stands (and on the Jumbotron), and my days in the federal government....

    ok, seriously, I’m not sure here that you can expel someone from a fantasy league - where he/she is presumably having fun playing - just for taking unwise chances or being “bad.” I drafted James Neal more than once this preseason, and other managers thought I was nuts. We also had a manager drop Quick after 3-4 games LAST YEAR (not even drafted this year) and he was chastised. The “experts” thought Tampa would breeze through Columbus last spring. Just saying.
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Absolutely not. (and I don't appreciate you suggesting that's what I suspect.)

    I hate that word: Collusion.
    There's no point in discussing it. I wish people would stop using that word, "collusion", as the sole reason for/against veto.
    Trying to "prove" or "disprove" collusion is such a massive undertaking... what - are we going to play all-powerful-judge and collect facts & evidence?!
    I mean... c'mon... this is fantasy hockey.
    "Collusion" is this full-information type of word where it it only makes sense to talk about it as a yes/no qualifier... and that's IF one is granted full information... which one never gets... and shouldn't even pursue... for something such as fantasy hockey! Fantasy hockey!

    There IS a time & place for a veto, though - without need for talk of "collusion".
    And, that is when there is an unbalanced trade that threatens the integrity (and/or fun) of a league.
    So... this is a good time for commissioner & league to investigate it.
    To do that... one has to establish patterns, advantages, disadvantages, history, and extrapolate towards future likelihoods.

    Again - veto can be considered without need to investigate collusion.
    This should be more of a "Why are these trades happening? Who is Benefiting? and How can we make this situation better?"
    Easy man. That’s what your post makes it sound like. I certainly wouldn’t fault you for suggesting it. No reason to be upset here.
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    D: Dahlin, Seider, Matheson, Durzi, Addison, Mintyukov
    G: Hill, Husso

    IR:

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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    It's more likely a case of:
    one GM in over his head in the pool
    +
    not having put the time in since to catch up to the knowledge of the OGM's
    +
    not giving the same level of crap as everyone else.
    =
    getting exploited and taken advantage of again and again and again.

    I had this issue with a GM. he admitted as much. He reached out when I did and asked for help.
    I gave analyzed his team and we talked about a game plan moving forward - who to trade - who to build around.
    He's tightened up a lot over the past year.
    Probably another 1-2 seasons away from making noise in the pool, but for the first time in 5 years. He's got a solid core - that he will keep and can build around.

    This approach worked because he was receptive.
    If he hadn't been receptive - replacement would have become an option I would have had to seriously consider.
    it was creating rifts within the pool.
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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    Sounds like the guy is just easy money for a hockey pool. No reason to veto anything. If anything take advantage early and if you are all concerned replace him next year.

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    Default Re: Bad Trade Vetos/GM Treatment

    We had a guy exactly like this. Started in baseball...everyone was racing to get his good players. Brought him into our hockey pool. Again same thing horrible trades. Luckily left after one year. Back to baseball owners were pretty well bringing up this same post. He was teased quite a bit and finally quit. The league has been so much better off. He’s in our free basketball pool. Same thing, it’s almost like he’s 4yrs old hitting buttons.

    Of course he wants back in but no way.

    You have to remove him and the league will be better off. It’s not like it’s 3-4 bad trades....it’s every trade!
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