[Rumor] Marner is gone from TO

[havanablast21]

What about all the other GMs that haven’t won who think similarly. Deferring to GMs and coaches because they have those jobs and outside people don’t hilariously ignores that they have those jobs largely because of rampant nepotism and not actual ability.

I think the travel is getting to your head rataylor.

If you agree that "building a team doesn't need to start with ... ANYTHING" which is what niconasr specifically said... then I don't know what to tell ya.

Saying "You've got to get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there" is quite short sighted IMO. Remembering that this is a business and winning often requires an open window where "GOOD PLAYERS" on a team are best set (and usually for a limited time).

Leafs could sign marner and 2 years from now see Andersen walk and leave a gapping hole in Net. Timing off and winning likely doesn't happen.
Leafs HAD Marner along with the rest of the forward crew and Anderesen... but seemingly lacked Defense. Perhaps the reason they haven't won.
Could also be that the forward talent is young and inexperienced and may take time to reach the ceiling of which their contracts have been paid... and in waiting... more players turn over or are lost.

if anything... building a winning team, I'd argue, definitely starts with a plan. A plan that outlines how this team is going to be built, filling positions/holes with contracts that can hopefully culminate together. Saying "you gotta get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there" is a statement made by an Arm Chair fantasy GM. Nepotism or not... if a Real GM thinks this way... they won't last long... (or ... they'll end up the GM of the Oilers... or Habs).

Dubas locked up their Centre depth (that matters) for 5 to 7 years. So set the "Window". Already has Tending for another 2 or 3 (Still within Window) Now he focuses on his Wingers and D. That's a plan. That's HOW HE'S TRYING TO GET THERE (Dubas that is).

My take.

[rataylor22]

I dunno. That was a lot words but you didn’t really say anything, and you certainly didn’t address anything I said. You just kinda talked in circles for 4 paragraphs and didn’t say anything of substance. Really not sure what you were trying to point out with quoting me.

DubS certainly has a plan. Saying his plan is correct or that he’s locking up “positions that matter” is probably overselling it, since things that matter change year over year. Wingers might not matter but Ovechkin was pretty important to the Capitals. Centers might matter but they didn’t really matter to the Blues or the Bruins or the Knights. Defence might matter but it didn’t matter to the Penguins. Superstars might matter but they didn’t matter to the Preds or the Knights. Pretending like we have a concrete idea of what exactly matters sounds pretty naive to me. The last 8 cup finalists have all had some similarities and some pretty drastic differences.

[SeaDawg]

"I see there is no pleasing you"

I realize professional athletes should be paid millions of dollars because they can do something that very few people on the planet can do. I'm not naive in that sense. However, each of the contracts I mentioned above are (in my own opinion, which means very little) bad contracts for different reasons.

And as I mentioned before, "bad" is a sliding scale. Ranked from not so bad to really bad, here's how I'd rank the contracts for the players I mentioned above:

- Tavares
- Matthews
- Marner (if he signs for $10+ million)
- Nylander
- Skinner
- Karlsson
- Laine (at $10 million)
- Benn
- Hayes
- Perry

There are plenty of "good" contracts out there and a few "great" contracts, but these things are somewhat subjective.

Off the top of my head...not ranked.

- Mackinnon (great contract)
- Barkov (great)
- Scheifele (great)
- Pastrnak (great)
- Gaudreau (great)
- Bergeron (great)
- McDavid (great)
- Kucherov (good)
- Draisaitl (good)
- Stamkos (good)
- Marchand (great)

[havanablast21]

I dunno...

Well, I agree with this.

[havanablast21]

I realize professional athletes should be paid millions of dollars because they can do something that very few people on the planet can do. I'm not naive in that sense. However, each of the contracts I mentioned above are (in my own opinion, which means very little) bad contracts for different reasons.

And as I mentioned before, "bad" is a sliding scale. Ranked from not so bad to really bad, here's how I'd rank the contracts for the players I mentioned above:

- Tavares
- Matthews
- Marner (if he signs for $10+ million)
- Nylander
- Skinner
- Karlsson
- Laine (at $10 million)
- Benn
- Hayes
- Perry

There are plenty of "good" contracts out there and a few "great" contracts, but these things are somewhat subjective.

Off the top of my head...not ranked.



- Mackinnon (great contract) - Signed before he was great
- Barkov (great) - Signed before he was great
- Scheifele (great) - Signed before he was great
- Pastrnak (great) - Signed just as he was becoming really good
- Gaudreau (great) - Signed before he was great
- Bergeron (great) - Agreed
- McDavid (great) - As compared to Kucherov... not all that Great
- Kucherov (good) - Rediculously GREAT (not sure why you'd call McDavid GREAT and Kuch Good).
- Draisaitl (good)
- Stamkos (good)
- Marchand (great)

I think timing had a lot to do with the positive contracts you mentioned above. My initial thoughts when i read that list (and no I don't have the stats page open on my lap) are included above.

Matthews is already doing GREAT THINGS. Hence his Contract.
Tavares IS already GREAT ... and was a Free Agent. Hence his Contract.

I really have no issue with both of those ones. Jury, for me, is still out on Nylander as he has a lot to prove on his contract, but if he can continue to progress much like Pastrnak has, then ... not so bad (considering you feel Pasta's contract is "Great"

[SeaDawg]

...

I see what you are saying...

anyway, just a few replies to your specific comments before moving on from this relatively off topic conversation...

- The Nylander contract could certainly move into the "good" or even "great" category if he progresses to the level of someone like Pastrnak...I just don't see that happening
- Kucherov's contract should be considered "great", I suppose...I put the list together really quickly...that said, I think McDavid's contract is better than Kucherov's, because of age, positions, marketability, upside/potential, and performance history.

[havanablast21]

I see what you are saying...

anyway, just a few replies to your specific comments before moving on from this relatively off topic conversation...

- The Nylander contract could certainly move into the "good" or even "great" category if he progresses to the level of someone like Pastrnak...I just don't see that happening
- Kucherov's contract should be considered "great", I suppose...I put the list together really quickly...that said, I think McDavid's contract is better than Kucherov's, because of age, positions, marketability, upside/potential, and performance history.

Fair enough!

I think where we do agree is that paying Marner north of 10 Million definitely has the potential to be a contract that could bite the Leafs in the ass.

[niconasr]

I think the travel is getting to your head rataylor.

If you agree that "building a team doesn't need to start with ... ANYTHING" which is what niconasr specifically said... then I don't know what to tell ya.

Saying "You've got to get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there" is quite short sighted IMO. Remembering that this is a business and winning often requires an open window where "GOOD PLAYERS" on a team are best set (and usually for a limited time).

Leafs could sign marner and 2 years from now see Andersen walk and leave a gapping hole in Net. Timing off and winning likely doesn't happen.
Leafs HAD Marner along with the rest of the forward crew and Anderesen... but seemingly lacked Defense. Perhaps the reason they haven't won.
Could also be that the forward talent is young and inexperienced and may take time to reach the ceiling of which their contracts have been paid... and in waiting... more players turn over or are lost.

if anything... building a winning team, I'd argue, definitely starts with a plan. A plan that outlines how this team is going to be built, filling positions/holes with contracts that can hopefully culminate together. Saying "you gotta get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there" is a statement made by an Arm Chair fantasy GM. Nepotism or not... if a Real GM thinks this way... they won't last long... (or ... they'll end up the GM of the Oilers... or Habs).

Dubas locked up their Centre depth (that matters) for 5 to 7 years. So set the "Window". Already has Tending for another 2 or 3 (Still within Window) Now he focuses on his Wingers and D. That's a plan. That's HOW HE'S TRYING TO GET THERE (Dubas that is).

My take.

I'm pretty sure you're agreeing with me here without realizing it. Again, I'm not saying not having a plan makes sense because of course it doesn't. All good GMs have a plan they follow to try to get their team a Cup, if they don't they wouldn't be GMs. What I'm saying is there's different kind of plans and that thinking only one plan (building with elite centers) works is foolish.

So yes, I stand by my statement that building a team doesn't start with anything. It starts with what you have. Some teams have the luxury of having good centers already (Toronto, Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa Bay, etc.) and some don't. The goal of any GM is to build by acquiring as many talented PLAYERS as they can...but they don't need to start with centers...though they could...which is what Dubas is doing.

Anyway, that's my take, I guess.

[niconasr]

ROR not elite? I beg to differ. Selke and Conn Smythe Trophies ratify elite status.
Botterill will be looking for his jockstrap for years after that deal.

Well, I don't want to get into that whole 'great vs elite' debate but I'm pretty sure, most of us have O'Reilly a tier under the elite centers of the league (Crosby, McDavid, etc.). Though I agree with you, that was a pretty bad trade, regardless.

[Axeman33]

Fair enough!

I think where we do agree is that paying Marner north of 10 Million definitely has the potential to be a contract that could bite the Leafs in the ass.

What's biting the Leafs in the ass is signing Tavares instead of addressing their known shortcomings. I've always said they didn't need Tavares and I stand by that. They should have invested in their backend. Don't get me wrong, I love JT, but the Leafs didn't need him. They already had a solid 1-2 center duo with Matthews and Kadri (who they can't afford to keep now it would appear as well) but they had to chase the rainbow and now it's biting them in the ass. I hope they choke on it. No pity from this hockey fan.

[saucelife90]

What's biting the Leafs in the ass is signing Tavares instead of addressing their known shortcomings. I've always said they didn't need Tavares and I stand by that. They should have invested in their backend. Don't get me wrong, I love JT, but the Leafs didn't need him. They already had a solid 1-2 center duo with Matthews and Kadri (who they can't afford to keep now it would appear as well) but they had to chase the rainbow and now it's biting them in the ass. I hope they choke on it. No pity from this hockey fan.

This times 1000.

Take JT out of the situation and there's no cap issues. Chances are, you sign Matthews cheaper than what he went for (10 Mill range) because he's not comparing himself to the shiny new FA you just added to your squad.. Marner signs for around 9.5-10, because there's no ill will toward the organization for paying a FA top $ then expecting him to be the one to take the home town discount.

[havanablast21]

What's biting the Leafs in the ass is signing Tavares instead of addressing their known shortcomings. I've always said they didn't need Tavares and I stand by that. They should have invested in their backend. Don't get me wrong, I love JT, but the Leafs didn't need him. They already had a solid 1-2 center duo with Matthews and Kadri (who they can't afford to keep now it would appear as well) but they had to chase the rainbow and now it's biting them in the ass. I hope they choke on it. No pity from this hockey fan.

I don’t expect or desire pity from a Soiler fan. But I will continue to pitty them.

[havanablast21]

This times 1000.

Take JT out of the situation and there's no cap issues. Chances are, you sign Matthews cheaper than what he went for (10 Mill range) because he's not comparing himself to the shiny new FA you just added to your squad.. Marner signs for around 9.5-10, because there's no ill will toward the organization for paying a FA top $ then expecting him to be the one to take the home town discount.

Or pay each of Marner and Matthews $1-2 million more and add a world class proven elite talent for just cash. You haters of that deal can keep criticizing the JT signing but I will never agree with that flawed logic. We’re 1 season in with JT and he’s had his best year. This team’s trajectory is still climbing (not their fault their in one of the toughest divisions). The constant criticism of one of the leagues best and improving young teams is Hillarious to me. But hatters gunna hate. Meanwhile I’m itching to see the puck drop On THIS leafs season.

[Daydream Nation]

Or pay each of Marner and Matthews $1-2 million more and add a world class proven elite talent for just cash. You haters of that deal can keep criticizing the JT signing but I will never agree with that flawed logic. We’re 1 season in with JT and he’s had his best year. This team’s trajectory is still climbing (not their fault their in one of the toughest divisions). The constant criticism of one of the leagues best and improving young teams is Hillarious to me. But hatters gunna hate. Meanwhile I’m itching to see the puck drop On THIS leafs season.

I don’t be hatin’on the Leafs. I actually like the Leafs and watch them often. But I agree with the others in that the JT signing didn’t solve their defensive problems and it definitely complicated their cap issues making the other signings more difficult. How would their outlook change if JT’s money was spent on Trouba and resigning the rest of the RFAs? If not Trouba, that money could have been spent on the blue line. 11 M goes a long way if spent wisely.

[havanablast21]

I don’t be hatin’on the Leafs. I actually like the Leafs and watch them often. But I agree with the others in that the JT signing didn’t solve their defensive problems and it definitely complicated their cap issues making the other signings more difficult. How would their outlook change if JT’s money was spent on Trouba and resigning the rest of the RFAs? If not Trouba, that money could have been spent on the blue line. 11 M goes a long way if spent wisely.

Agreed ... but right now it’s Marleau and Zietsev’s combined salary of... ironically enough, $11 ish million that could be best spent on D upgrades and that’s WITH JT on this roster. Dubas is creating HIs TEAM while trying to deal with Lou’s mistakes. JT still is no mistake.