[Rumor] Marner is gone from TO

[lucafen4]

I don't know how long-term injured contracts work...I seem to recall that the cap hit counts in the off-season, but is removed after the season starts...so they have to sign all their players taking Horton's contract into consideration this off-season.

Maybe I'm wrong though...

If you include Horton's contract - they can go 5.3m above the top of the cap. The 5.3 goes on LTIR and no longer counts against it.

[2014olympicgold]

I don't know how long-term injured contracts work...I seem to recall that the cap hit counts in the off-season, but is removed after the season starts...so they have to sign all their players taking Horton's contract into consideration this off-season.

Maybe I'm wrong though...

Teams are allowed to go 10% over the cap in the off-season, so theoretically they can go 5.3mill over the cap, move players to the AHL to get under the cap, LTIR Horton, move those AHL contracts back up with the new space basically. That's how I understand it.

[Skippy]

I’m the OP and just wanted to say hi. Hi.

[SeaDawg]

you look at Boston and St. Louis.. one thing they have in common.... value contracts top to bottom. No massive outliers. Pitts didn't win again until Sid & Malkin contracts were no longer outliers.

no question about this...you might get lucky with the formula that Toronto and others are trying to use, but without question they will lack depth compared to teams that will have 4 solid lines without any outlier contracts. If a team like Toronto gets hit with a major injury to any of their high-priced players, they won't have the depth to recover.

[SeaDawg]

If you include Horton's contract - they can go 5.3m above the top of the cap. The 5.3 goes on LTIR and no longer counts against it.

Teams are allowed to go 10% over the cap in the off-season, so theoretically they can go 5.3mill over the cap, move players to the AHL to get under the cap, LTIR Horton, move those AHL contracts back up with the new space basically. That's how I understand it.

ok, thanks for clarifying...so that helps them a bit for sure. Still lots of work to do.

[2014olympicgold]

ok, thanks for clarifying...so that helps them a bit for sure. Still lots of work to do.

Oh ya, lots of weight on Borgman, Rosen, Lili/Sandin, and probably Bracco, Brooks, Mikheyev/Korshkov and Marchment.

Then in a couple of years Andersen is due for a pay raise (2 more seasons with 5mill caphit). But with the Horton LTIR, they don't NEED to move Kadri, but it's a possibility to bring in a defenseman so that only 2 rookies get in the lineup.

[lucafen4]

Easiest solution is still - not only trade Marleau and Zaitsev for cap space...


But trade Nylander to fill a NEED.

[havanablast21]

To me, he IS the biggest piece of the teams future and he's not someone you lose to sacrifice the "teams future". You lose other pieces but Marner is arguably their best player who's just scratching the surface.

And you're definitely entitled to that view point. But I personally see Mathews and JT as the biggest pieces of the team's future, much like I'm sure you see McDavid as the key cog over Draisaitl. If you don't quality up the middle but rather just dynamic talent on the wing... you end up being the Leafs of a decade ago (Kessel with Bozak).

JT and Matthews can raise the game of ANY of the leafs current wingers. Will they be as good as marner...likely not. I admit, Marner is the Leaf's BEST winger. Best player? I'll still look to Matthews and JT and build around them. (hopefully WITH Marner). But Wingers are more replaceable than franchise forwards IMO. Clearly leaf's management are of a similar opinion as they've targeted their key guys to sign/extend. Those were Mathews and JT.

[havanablast21]

I'm not a Leafs fan, but I think the Matthews and Nylander contracts are horrible.

I'm sure an argument can be made that the contracts were "market value", but as I have said in numerous posts lately, the market is broken. I also think the Tavares contract is bad, and if Marner signs for $10+ million, that contract will be bad also. What is "bad" is a sliding scale...Marner at $10 million isn't as bad as Hayes at $7+, but it's still bad.

The NHL is in big trouble right now...Hayes, Skinner, Karlsson...all those contracts will handcuff their respective teams, eventually. If Laine gets anything close to $8 million (as rumored), that will be very horrible contract. The list just goes on and on right now.

Teams seem to be going the route of loading up with 5 or 6 high-end contracts and then plugging the holes with a bunch of minimum value contracts. That works only up to a certain point. As the roster turns over and your next big player comes off of his ELC, you simply won't be able to fit in another high-end contract without buying someone out, or trying to find a way to unload bad contracts, like Toronto is doing now with Marleau, Kadri, and Zaitsev. And if a player regresses (Perry, Benn) or doesn't progress as hoped (possibly Laine, Nylander), then you are doubly-screwed.

"I see there is no pleasing you"
gold member.jpg

[niconasr]

And you're definitely entitled to that view point. But I personally see Mathews and JT as the biggest pieces of the team's future, much like I'm sure you see McDavid as the key cog over Draisaitl. If you don't quality up the middle but rather just dynamic talent on the wing... you end up being the Leafs of a decade ago (Kessel with Bozak).

JT and Matthews can raise the game of ANY of the leafs current wingers. Will they be as good as marner...likely not. I admit, Marner is the Leaf's BEST winger. Best player? I'll still look to Matthews and JT and build around them. (hopefully WITH Marner). But Wingers are more replaceable than franchise forwards IMO. Clearly leaf's management are of a similar opinion as they've targeted their key guys to sign/extend. Those were Mathews and JT.

I don't mind the view point that Matthews and Tavares are better than Marner, but I hate it when people keep going back to the 'must build around centers' theory. St-Louis won the Cup with O'Reilly and Schenn as its top two centers. Both strong centers but not elite and certainly not the players St-Louis built around. Great players are great players and they help you win, regardless of the position they play. The Leafs are lucky to have three such talented forwards and should try to keep them all but saying Marner has less value to the Leafs than Matthews and Tavares simply because he's a winger is a flawed argument to me.

[Doug Glatt]

I don't mind the view point that Matthews and Tavares are better than Marner, but I hate it when people keep going back to the 'must build around centers' theory. St-Louis won the Cup with O'Reilly and Schenn as its top two centers. Both strong centers but not elite and certainly not the players St-Louis built around. Great players are great players and they help you win, regardless of the position they play. The Leafs are lucky to have three such talented forwards and should try to keep them all but saying Marner has less value to the Leafs than Matthews and Tavares simply because he's a winger is a flawed argument to me.

ROR not elite? I beg to differ. Selke and Conn Smythe Trophies ratify elite status.
Botterill will be looking for his jockstrap for years after that deal.

[havanablast21]

I don't mind the view point that Matthews and Tavares are better than Marner, but I hate it when people keep going back to the 'must build around centers' theory. St-Louis won the Cup with O'Reilly and Schenn as its top two centers. Both strong centers but not elite and certainly not the players St-Louis built around. Great players are great players and they help you win, regardless of the position they play. The Leafs are lucky to have three such talented forwards and should try to keep them all but saying Marner has less value to the Leafs than Matthews and Tavares simply because he's a winger is a flawed argument to me.

Perhaps.

but Kessel couldn't win with Bozak (and Bozak was a 3rd liner in St.Louis this year). Bozak was a top C all those years on the Leafs with an Elite scoring winger.

O'Rielly may not be Elite, but he's damn good and in the same ilk as Bergeron. Schenn is also an above average C. And short of Tank, the blues also don't have a plethora of Elite Wingers... so... once again... stability gained up the middle and surround them with quality wingers... you have a winning product.

[niconasr]

Perhaps.

but Kessel couldn't win with Bozak (and Bozak was a 3rd liner in St.Louis this year). Bozak was a top C all those years on the Leafs with an Elite scoring winger.

O'Rielly may not be Elite, but he's damn good and in the same ilk as Bergeron. Schenn is also an above average C. And short of Tank, the blues also don't have a plethora of Elite Wingers... so... once again... stability gained up the middle and surround them with quality wingers... you have a winning product.

Well, of course, wingers by themselves won't help you win. That's why you need balance all over the lineup. My point was that building a team doesn't need to start with centers...or defensemen...or anything. There's no right way to build a winning team. You've got to get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there.

[havanablast21]

Well, of course, wingers by themselves won't help you win. That's why you need balance all over the lineup. My point was that building a team doesn't need to start with centers...or defensemen...or anything. There's no right way to build a winning team. You've got to get good players at every position, no matter which way you try to get there.

I would defer to the GM's and Coaches who have won to validate your comment that "building a team doesn't need to start with centers...or defensemen...or anything".

I'm thinking those NON Arm Chair GM's may disagree with such a statement.

[rataylor22]

I would defer to the GM's and Coaches who have won to validate your comment that "building a team doesn't need to start with centers...or defensemen...or anything".

I'm thinking those NON Arm Chair GM's may disagree with such a statement.

What about all the other GMs that haven’t won who think similarly. Deferring to GMs and coaches because they have those jobs and outside people don’t hilariously ignores that they have those jobs largely because of rampant nepotism and not actual ability.