TRUMP

[lobo1969]

I'm in complete agreement on Trump, however, is Hillary Clinton any better? She is more well spoken and politically savvy to be sure, but at her core, she is as morally bankrupt and corrupt as Trump. Fine choices the American people had.

Yes Hillary is better.
She came with a ton of political baggage but the Republicans (and Russians) did a great job of making her worse than she really is. I'm still waiting to hear about all this proof that the Clinton's corrupt and illegal activities come to light.

[The Comish]

Yes Hillary is better.
She came with a ton of political baggage but the Republicans (and Russians) did a great job of making her worse than she really is. I'm still waiting to hear about all this proof that the Clinton's corrupt and illegal activities come to light.

That's because people keep dying! I kid, well sort of. Suspiciously timed deaths only add fuel to the fire. Obviously, there is no actionable proof, otherwise people would be in jail. If Hillary is better, it's only because she's smart enough to not say the really dumb and divisive stuff that spews from Trump. The fact that these two were the best the two major American political parties could come up with is beyond pathetic.

[Wonko]

That's because people keep dying! I kid, well sort of. Suspiciously timed deaths only add fuel to the fire. Obviously, there is no actionable proof, otherwise people would be in jail. If Hillary is better, it's only because she's smart enough to not say the really dumb and divisive stuff that spews from Trump. The fact that these two were the best the two major American political parties could come up with is beyond pathetic.

I agree, the choices in the 2016 election were incredible poor, but Hillary was by far the better of two bad options. It is not even a contest. And I don't particularly like Hillary. Conspiracy theories and unproven allegations initiated and disseminated by the far right amount to the brunt of her negative stigma. Oh, and her e-mails. Those damn e-mails. Perhaps you are right Comish, and it is in part because Hillary is smarter than Trump, but regardless she is most certainly a more decent human being as well.

[The Comish]

Perhaps you are right Comish, and it is in part because Hillary is smarter than Trump, but regardless she is most certainly a more decent human being as well.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Anton Chigurh]

Yes Hillary is better.
She came with a ton of political baggage but the Republicans (and Russians) did a great job of making her worse than she really is. I'm still waiting to hear about all this proof that the Clinton's corrupt and illegal activities come to light.

I'm still waiting for proof that Russians meddled in the election. Trial by media!

[lobo1969]

I'm still waiting for proof that Russians meddled in the election. Trial by media!

Are you a Russian computer/social media analyst Anton?

[Anton Chigurh]

Are you a Russian computer/social media analyst Anton?

It was a serious statement... there has been literally no evidence shown. Lots of noise and lots of finger pointing. The propaganda is working. While everyone fights about whether Trump is the worst president ever. Truth is, they are all the same. Look at the forest not the trees.

[Wonko]

It was a serious statement... there has been literally no evidence shown. Lots of noise and lots of finger pointing. The propaganda is working. While everyone fights about whether Trump is the worst president ever. Truth is, they are all the same. Look at the forest not the trees.

The Congressional intelligence committee, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA and at least 7 other intelligence agencies have confirmed that Russia hacked/meddled in the 2016 election in Trump's favor, but you have weighed the facts that you found on the internet one night and deemed the results insufficient. And that is why Trump is Prez.

[Anton Chigurh]

The Congressional intelligence committee, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA and at least 7 other intelligence agencies have confirmed that Russia hacked/meddled in the 2016 election in Trump's favor, but you have weighed the facts that you found on the internet one night and deemed the results insufficient. And that is why Trump is Prez.

You are mistaken. All of those agencies have stated the Russians are responsible, but not one has provided any evidence. Please send me a link that clearly shows the evidence of hacking. If they all have evidence it shouldn?t be hard to find a link. But I want evidence, not just he said/she said.

Have you not figured out yet that your government lies to you everyday to fulfill their own agenda. Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, Assad chemical bombs his own people, Russia meddled in the election...

[Wonko]

You are mistaken. All of those agencies have stated the Russians are responsible, but not one has provided any evidence. Please send me a link that clearly shows the evidence of hacking. If they all have evidence it shouldn?t be hard to find a link. But I want evidence, not just he said/she said.

Have you not figured out yet that your government lies to you everyday to fulfill their own agenda. Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, Assad chemical bombs his own people, Russia meddled in the election...

Rigggghhhhhht. Ok. One of those. I am sure the US government, along with all the other world governments who have come to these conclusions will undermine and risk the livelihoods and lives of intelligence personnel around the globe to appease your conspiracy theories. You can sleep well Anton. Your conspiracy theories are gonna stay rock solid.

[Godin]

That's because people keep dying! I kid, well sort of. Suspiciously timed deaths only add fuel to the fire. Obviously, there is no actionable proof, otherwise people would be in jail. If Hillary is better, it's only because she's smart enough to not say the really dumb and divisive stuff that spews from Trump. The fact that these two were the best the two major American political parties could come up with is beyond pathetic.

She may have won had she said really dumb and divisive stuff. Worked like a charm for Trump.

[The Comish]

She may have won had she said really dumb and divisive stuff. Worked like a charm for Trump.

Do you really think that the majority of voters who voted for Trump did so because they like how Trump conducts himself or did they do so because he said he would put America first? Or even that he wasn't more of the same political phony who says one thing and does another while lining their own pockets and those of their friends? That's what Clinton represented to a good number of voters. Trump was change. Pretty clear that it wasn't necessarily change for the better!

I hate how Trump talks and think he is unfit for the office he holds, but I detest Clinton. I would not have voted for either one.

[Anton Chigurh]

Rigggghhhhhht. Ok. One of those. I am sure the US government, along with all the other world governments who have come to these conclusions will undermine and risk the livelihoods and lives of intelligence personnel around the globe to appease your conspiracy theories. You can sleep well Anton. Your conspiracy theories are gonna stay rock solid.

Instead of knocking my opinion with rhetoric, please provide the evidence I asked for. It's everywhere, right? Countless agencies all have it... so let's see it!

And I'm not trying to come off as aggressive or confrontational. I just want to see the evidence for this narrative that is being spoon fed to populations across the west.

And, for what its worth, your livelihood IS being undermined and risked. Isn't that painfully obvious. You are likely middle-class so it probably hasn't slapped you in the face yet, but why don't you go ask someone from lower class America what their government has done for them lately... your turn is coming. All of our turns are coming.

[doulos]

I'm still waiting for proof that Russians meddled in the election. Trial by media!

Mueller isn't worried about your impatience. It seems pretty obvious that this happened, but we won't know for sure until they wrap up their investigation.

[PrairieDog]

But here is where things get confusing for me.

First, I only know a bit about Ocasio-Cortez, but I did not think she believed things like you claim. No prisons. No profits for companies. No borders. I'd like to see evidence of this.

However, let's assume for a moment that she does believe those things. Someone who is that far outside the Democratic party mainstream would likely never become party leader. Just look at the things the Democratic party did to make sure Bernie Sanders was undermined and that much is clear. So, why are you concerned? They are not policies that have a real chance of becoming a thing. You say that if your choice is a wall vs no borders then you choose a wall. Well, ok, but in reality you're getting neither one given to you because the Democratic party was never putting forth no borders as an option, and this wall is never getting built either (better fencing, yes, but not a wall that resembles anything like the prototypes Trump was looking at early on). So you're putting forth options that don't represent reality.

OK I need to walk that one back. She's basically calling for abolishment of current immigration enforcement, replacing it with something close to an open-border policy. She's got a lot of pie-in-the sky ideas but I admit I was breaking my own rules by not fully researching her and conflating her with others on the left. Her ideals are unrealistic and very socialist, and maybe she herself won't go far politically, but IMO she represents a growing far-left movement that is detrimental to North America.

(The extreme end of this are the left's equivalent of the tiki-torch/nazi skinhead types, Antifa (I am not associating Cortez with them at all). I know they're the fringe but that fringe represents the far-end of left extremism the same way skinheads and the KKK represent the far-end or right extremism. Thugs hiding behind ideology to justify their behaviour.)

In the same way that Trump rode a platform that espouses ideologies and policies that many feel are unrealistic (the Wall, kicking out every illegal immigrant in the country, being a bully on the international stage, etc), it's not hard to envision the same thing happening on the other side (for me, anyway).

Which brings us to this...

Then you end with what is the most stunning to me, that you like Trudeau less than Donald Trump by a long shot (and that you're part of a very large number of people in both countries who likely believe the same).

I said I like his (in my opinion) leftist policies less than the alternative if that alternative was Trump. I don't like either of them or how they present themselves, and I don't think I can rank them.

I cannot put into words how shocking that reality is for me, and ultimately how depressing. When I hear statements like that I get pretty discouraged at the state of the world, though I do think I need to keep a more positive outlook. The world my kids are raised in (particularly as a Canadian) is pretty great overall, and generally we are making progress towards a better world, even if we get a few bumps in the road like Trump and Doug Ford to remind people like me that voting is important (something I avoided doing for years, but very recently went back to)

This is where you are getting me wrong. The country your kids, and yourself (I'm assuming), and myself, and many others reading this - were raised in is probably just about the best anyone could ask for. Not perfect but like you said (and I did earlier) we are progressing. 80 years ago I would not have been allowed to vote here because of the colour of my skin. Now that would be unthinkable and probably abhorrent to the vast majority of Canadians. Look at how different it is for LGBT people compared to even 30 years ago. We are definitely progressing.

But I think the pendulum can swing too far the other way, when special status is granted to minority groups to ensure some kind of equity of outcome. Equity of opportunity and human and civil rights is something that should absolutely be striven for - oppression does happen but I don't think it's as systemic as it's made out to be. The push for granting special rights to "minority groups" (of which I qualify for several) is not, in my opinion, a beneficial thing for us. It separates us into group identities and creates more division in society. You're not you, an individual, you're a 'straight white male' or 'gay African-American' or an 'Indo-Canadian' or 'Republican'. I feel Trudeau's policies reinforce societal division and fragmentation in Canada.

I also feel Trudeau's government is proposing immigration targets that are too high for us to accommodate properly, both fiscally and as a society. It's way too lenient with enforcing illegal immigration laws at the borders. I'm not opposed to immigration. But it has to make sense, and I don't care who you are or where you came from - there are laws and there is a process, if you want to live here then follow them (if that is somehow racist to anyone - bullshit).

I am sorry that you feel that my beliefs are a threat - but I don't see it that way at all, quite the opposite. I feel Trudeau and his government's policies are a threat to the country you describe growing up in. I get discouraged as a Canadian, and like you, I did not participate in voting for a long time until recently.

Interesting how this has reminded both of us how important it is to vote and be more politically aware. We both as Canadians are extremely disturbed by extreme political ideology and the politicians leading the charge.

This is getting exhausting though. I think I have made myself a bit clearer? I don't know what political moniker I would fall under, and as soon as you name one people pigeon-hole you into everything anyone associated with that party or ideology has ever said or done. Classical liberal, libertarian, I don't know. But Trudeau's liberalism is way too left for me.

Obviously we won't have a Trump in Canada. That was a hyperbolic (but illustrative) hypothetical. The left is too far left for me, so the only other realistic option is the right. In Canada it ain't gonna be a Trump.

Thank god I don't need to even contemplate the choice of Trump.