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Thread: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

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    Default This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Let's field two teams: Those they traded away (Team 1) and those they got (Team 2)

    Team 1

    Paccioretty Turris Galchenyuk
    Subban Karlsson
    Bishop

    Team 2

    Duchesne Domi Tatar
    Weber DiMelo
    Anderson


    Which team would you rather have?
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Do we really have to answer this one?! I think Dorion is the worst of the 2. Seems like he’s always on the bad side of a trade. You forgot to put Burrows/Dahlen... ishhh
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeds of Grapes View Post
    Let's field two teams: Those they traded away (Team 1) and those they got (Team 2)

    Team 1

    Paccioretty Turris Galchenyuk
    Subban Karlsson
    Bishop
    Sens' 2019 1st rounder (gotta be thinking lottery pick right now)

    Team 2

    Duchesne Domi Tatar Conacher
    Weber DiMelo
    (Suzuki)

    Which team would you rather have?
    It's actually worse than you think. They got Cory Conacher from TB for Bishop, not Anderson. Anderson they got from Colorado (can't remember the return). Add the 1st pick next year in the Duchene deal too (obviously others too, but this one is the most significant).

    Suzuki is also a very solid prospect, he does factor in.

    Pretty bad when you're being badly out-performed by Bergevin.
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Don't know if disgraceful is the right word I'd use. Embarrassing maybe, and this is coming from a guy who's favorite team has Chiarelli as his GM. That's saying something.
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Bergiven should not be employed by any professional or semi-professional hockey team, but the longer he stays on, the better.

    As for Dorian, I kind of feel for the guy. I really believe he isn?t the one calling the shots. We?ve heard of certain teams GM needed the approval from ownership before making a big move but I get the sense that Melnyk is making all the decisions, every single move, big or small, and that he just uses Dorian as the team?s spokesman.

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieDog View Post
    It's actually worse than you think. They got Cory Conacher from TB for Bishop, not Anderson. Anderson they got from Colorado (can't remember the return). Add the 1st pick next year in the Duchene deal too (obviously others too, but this one is the most significant).

    Suzuki is also a very solid prospect, he does factor in.

    Pretty bad when you're being badly out-performed by Bergevin.
    The Bishop trade has been blown out of proportion for years. Ottawa only gave up a 2nd rounder to acquire him from STL (and STL only moved him because he was third on their depth list). Ottawa did the same thing, they flipped Bishop instead of losing him for nothing. And it was the right call at the time, because Anderson nearly took this team to the cup, and - at the time - Lehner was their goalie of the future. When you put this trade in context, it's not that bad. Why is it tthat everyone craps on Ottawa for giving Bishop away, but NOBODY craps on St. Louis for doing exactly the same thing?

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    The Bishop trade has been blown out of proportion for years. Ottawa only gave up a 2nd rounder to acquire him from STL (and STL only moved him because he was third on their depth list). Ottawa did the same thing, they flipped Bishop instead of losing him for nothing. And it was the right call at the time, because Anderson nearly took this team to the cup, and - at the time - Lehner was their goalie of the future. When you put this trade in context, it's not that bad. Why is it tthat everyone craps on Ottawa for giving Bishop away, but NOBODY craps on St. Louis for doing exactly the same thing?
    That may be the case but we're talking about this in the context of Ottawa and Montreal here. Remove the Bishop deal from the above, it doesn't look much better.
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    D - Dahlin, Theodore, Bouchard, Faber, Werenski, Skjei
    G - Jarry, Gustavsson, Montembault
    Fm - Bordeleau, Barlow, Lucius, G.Perreault, Luneau, Perunovich, Nikishin

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieDog View Post
    That may be the case but we're talking about this in the context of Ottawa and Montreal here. Remove the Bishop deal from the above, it doesn't look much better.
    The Bishop deal is irrelevant for many reasons; it was done by a former Ottawa regime, and - in proper context - the deal wasn't that bad. Until Dorian came along, Ottawa was fine at drafting and making trades. Now it's just embarrassing on every front.

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    The Bishop deal is irrelevant for many reasons; it was done by a former Ottawa regime, and - in proper context - the deal wasn't that bad. Until Dorian came along, Ottawa was fine at drafting and making trades. Now it's just embarrassing on every front.
    This is true. Murray made that deal and up until that point Bishop was still considered a depth option in net. Besides, he’s only had two good seasons surrounded by years of average to poor performance like Mike Smith. The trade sure looked bad the following year but it’s still not in the category of the Bergevin and Dorion type of chronic incompetence.
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    I for one hope Dorion & Bergervin stick around for the long term... After so many years of hearing it from both fan bases... That go leafs go chant is just going to get louder in their buildings. Well... it'll be 2 extra home games in Ottawa..
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quebec Senators, anyone?

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    The issue stems to perceived value from a motivated seller's perspective.

    Then factor in that these franchises are operating with what is essentially an open book, so the market can see or guess at the final asking price.

    I would view it in the context of a contango market when prices are lower now and these teams are selling assets into that market.

    As a buyer why pay full freight when the market is determining a forwardation price action ?

    Buy now at a discount and sell later at a higher price. We can see a perfect example of that with the Mike Hoffman scenario.

    Its part of any basic business program and its kind of shocking that the owners of these franchises are operating in such a poor manner.

    Then there is how well ownership handles the team.

    There was a very interesting interview with former linebacker Pepper Johnson who mentioned that the way ownership went about managing the club went a long way towards its success.

    Here is a snip of what I mean

    "The difference between Woody and Hess, when I got injured in 97, when I woke up from my surgery, [then-Jets owner] Leon Hess was in my room. That man cared enough to be in my room when I woke up. I saw him before my mother, I saw him before at that time my fiancee. I felt big. I even told Parcells, I'm coming back for the 98 season because Mr. Hess was in my room before I woke up. I [played for] Wellington Mara, Art Modell, William Clay Ford. Wellington Mara and Hess are the only [owners] that would have been in my room. I dont think Art Modell and Art Modell was a great guy, dont get me wrong but I dont think Art Modell would have been in my room. I know Ford wouldnt have been in my room. He barely came to a game.

    What about Woody?

    I dont think Woody would have been in my room. Now, if we get to the owners from when I started coaching, [Patriots owner Robert] Kraft would have been in my room, simply because of our relationship. But the whole reason Im telling you this story is because Woody, my whole two years there, didnt know my name. He did not know my name. When he shook my hand, he said, "Hey." One time, we were on the field, and he said, "Hey, coach." Im quite sure he didnt know me from one of the players.

    Whereas Kraft knows everyones name? Yeah. Kraft would know everyone.

    How does this kind of thing trickle down to the rest of the organization?

    To me, its huge. Wellington Mara used to walk around the practice field like, the whole time, that was his exercise. Until Parcells blew the whistle, thats when he stopped. He didnt say anything, he didnt try to get up in the forefront, nothing. Only time you didnt see him was if it was raining or it was brutal cold out. You wanted to win for him. I dont want to take nothing away from Parcells, but you didnt just want to win for Parcells. That championship trophy, I was so glad to see Mara holding that trophy."

    Wellington Mara had multiple championships with the NY Giants. Modell for the record won championships in his first season in Cleveland and his last season in Baltimore so I think Pepper is kinda wonky on this, but he is speaking about family or team which I think cannot be under stated.

    Ottawa let things slip and slide out of control, assets devalued and now they are reaping the rewards of that folly.
    Montreal seems to be in denial of the state of the franchise, the turning point to me seeming to be bridge deal with PK Subban.

    Both highly flawed business operation models.

    To endure this kind of folly as a fan is both sad and frustrating. best of luck to those of you who cheer for either team.
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by DusterDave View Post
    Bergiven should not be employed by any professional or semi-professional hockey team, but the longer he stays on, the better.

    As for Dorian, I kind of feel for the guy. I really believe he isn?t the one calling the shots. We?ve heard of certain teams GM needed the approval from ownership before making a big move but I get the sense that Melnyk is making all the decisions, every single move, big or small, and that he just uses Dorian as the team?s spokesman.
    I think there is definitely some truth to this. I feel bad for dorion for this reason. What owner wouldn't fire him unless otherwise?

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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by roenick27 View Post
    I think there is definitely some truth to this. I feel bad for dorion for this reason. What owner wouldn't fire him unless otherwise?
    Meanwhile Doug Wilson is a diabolical genius.

    Sending Hoffman and his fiancee to Florida for 2 years when rumors that Karlsson's want to be on the opposite side of the continent from them, but was also rumored to be liking the idea of signing in Tampa
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    Default Re: This is how disgraceful Bergevin and Dorion/Melnyk Really Are

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieDog View Post
    It's actually worse than you think. They got Cory Conacher from TB for Bishop, not Anderson. Anderson they got from Colorado (can't remember the return). Add the 1st pick next year in the Duchene deal too (obviously others too, but this one is the most significant).

    Suzuki is also a very solid prospect, he does factor in.

    Pretty bad when you're being badly out-performed by Bergevin.
    Only cause I know this... Elliott. (At least Anderson stuck with the team and was pretty good). Just keeping it honest.

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