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Thread: Serena Williams

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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    Whether she acted ridiculously isn't really the larger point. The criticism leveled on her, relative to other folks in tennis (read: white males) who exhibit this same type of behavior regularly, is the problem. Until there are equal degrees of criticism for white men and black women, we have a racism problem in sports. Period. Full stop.

    I certainly don't recall the outcry against folks like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc. for their tantrums (which are also well-documented). And I seem to remember a certain John McEnroe being remembered and lauded as some kind of hero, when in reality he was a buffoon and not even 1/10th of the ambassador for the sport, let alone role model of the Williams sisters.

    This thread is pretty shameful. Unless of course you want to make a thread like this every time a white guy does the same thing. Spoiler alert: you're going to be very busy. Check your privilege and racial bias, please.
    Ive seen Andy Murray receive plenty of negative press for his on-court behavior.
    How is this thread shameful?
    Id be ashamed if I went around telling people I dont even know to check there privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    I'm glad I posted this, as it's been a civil discussion so far. Should point that out to everyone! well done.
    oops. I might have ruined it. Ill step away for a bit haha

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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    Whether she acted ridiculously isn't really the larger point. The criticism leveled on her, relative to other folks in tennis (read: white males) who exhibit this same type of behavior regularly, is the problem. Until there are equal degrees of criticism for white men and black women, we have a racism problem in sports. Period. Full stop.

    I certainly don't recall the outcry against folks like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, etc. for their tantrums (which are also well-documented). And I seem to remember a certain John McEnroe being remembered and lauded as some kind of hero, when in reality he was a buffoon and not even 1/10th of the ambassador for the sport, let alone role model of the Williams sisters.

    This thread is pretty shameful. Unless of course you want to make a thread like this every time a white guy does the same thing. Spoiler alert: you're going to be very busy. Check your privilege and racial bias, please.
    Did the white guys irrationally accuse the officials of being unfair because they were white guys?

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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    I'm glad I posted this, as it's been a civil discussion so far. Should point that out to everyone! well done.

    From what I see in tennis, and I typically on watch the men highlights, but they seem to get the one warning and get their monies worth in that one argument. Then tend to stop. Serena does her argument and the ref lets it, then she keeps going back and saying things, albeit not swearing or yelling, but arguing. Ref at one point even tried to say something to her and she said "I'm not talking to you" then follows it up 15s later with either a Thief comment again or "You're never reffing on my court again I'll tell you that". I think it was the constant arguing (again tho, not yelling, just arguing) that was it for the ref.

    Does anyone have a video of what the coach was doing all game? Serena admitted to "yes i did get coached, I'm sorry" or something along the lines there and she seemed content with that call, it was the stuff after that triggered her.
    I saw the entire outburst (after the fact).

    It wasn't so much Serena had to admit that she received coaching. She may of had no idea whatsoever. But the Coach admitted on camera that he was, in fact, trying to coach her. In a case like this, it is the player that receives the penalty for the coaches actions. Doesn't matter if Serena admitted she saw it or admitted she saw it. In her mind, she didn't get coached but the coach's actions suggested he was trying to coach her and his words clearly stated he was. Whether or not others are called for it is irrelevant in my opinion. He called something that HE SAW and what the coach admitted to doing. Serena got the warning... she chatted with the Ref and could have moved on.

    But if anyone expected the Ref to change his call just because Serena said "I wasn't receiving coaching" is a little ridiculous. Once the call is made it's made. There was no video review and even if there was, it would have shown Serena's coach flashing signals. Video review can't confirm or disprove if Serena caught the signals or not.

    But back to Serena... she got the warning and could have/should have moved on. I SEE NOTHING that could suggest Sexist action here. It's not like she was playing a man and this call favored the guy. No... 2 women playing. Once got called for her coach flashing signals. Deal with it. (Cops can't pull every speeder over... but if the one they do is female... is that sexist? )

    had she moved passed the issue which she herself said "I can understand how you would have thought that"... (again... how can a ref go back on his call just because she said that. Pandora's Box for him in the future)... the rest of the event is 100% the result of Serena's outburst and inability to manage her game and her temper.

    Slamming down her racket. Did he have to call that? no, but he was well within his rights to do so as the rules state and support the call.
    Is he sexist for calling it on Serena? Not sure how anyone but the Ref can truly state that. But her opponent was also a female, so why would sexism come into play? What if the ref was a woman and made the same calls?

    Then her inability to exercise class and decorum and endless chirping at the ref, threats (and she did threaten him, threaten his job "You'll never work another one of my matches") and eventual personal attack in calling him a Theif.. I would have done the very same thing. She was taking control of the match for all the wrong reasons. He had just as much responsibility to support Serena's opponent (again...a female) and maintain control of the match.

    Serena... any players for that matter... have duty to respect the Ref's in any sport. Choose not to (whether you think your justified or not) comes with consequence. That's how I see it. She acted in a way that warranted consequences for the betterment of the match. Did that alter the outcome? Who knows... but letting Serena continue to throw a temper tantrum could have exposed her opponent to stresses of her own that should not be warranted or supported or experienced by her opponent.
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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by havanablast21 View Post
    I saw the entire outburst (after the fact).

    It wasn't so much Serena had to admit that she received coaching. She may of had no idea whatsoever. But the Coach admitted on camera that he was, in fact, trying to coach her. In a case like this, it is the player that receives the penalty for the coaches actions. Doesn't matter if Serena admitted she saw it or admitted she saw it. In her mind, she didn't get coached but the coach's actions suggested he was trying to coach her and his words clearly stated he was. Whether or not others are called for it is irrelevant in my opinion. He called something that HE SAW and what the coach admitted to doing. Serena got the warning... she chatted with the Ref and could have moved on.

    But if anyone expected the Ref to change his call just because Serena said "I wasn't receiving coaching" is a little ridiculous. Once the call is made it's made. There was no video review and even if there was, it would have shown Serena's coach flashing signals. Video review can't confirm or disprove if Serena caught the signals or not.

    But back to Serena... she got the warning and could have/should have moved on. I SEE NOTHING that could suggest Sexist action here. It's not like she was playing a man and this call favored the guy. No... 2 women playing. Once got called for her coach flashing signals. Deal with it. (Cops can't pull every speeder over... but if the one they do is female... is that sexist? )

    had she moved passed the issue which she herself said "I can understand how you would have thought that"... (again... how can a ref go back on his call just because she said that. Pandora's Box for him in the future)... the rest of the event is 100% the result of Serena's outburst and inability to manage her game and her temper.

    Slamming down her racket. Did he have to call that? no, but he was well within his rights to do so as the rules state and support the call.
    Is he sexist for calling it on Serena? Not sure how anyone but the Ref can truly state that. But her opponent was also a female, so why would sexism come into play? What if the ref was a woman and made the same calls?

    Then her inability to exercise class and decorum and endless chirping at the ref, threats (and she did threaten him, threaten his job "You'll never work another one of my matches") and eventual personal attack in calling him a Theif.. I would have done the very same thing. She was taking control of the match for all the wrong reasons. He had just as much responsibility to support Serena's opponent (again...a female) and maintain control of the match.

    Serena... any players for that matter... have duty to respect the Ref's in any sport. Choose not to (whether you think your justified or not) comes with consequence. That's how I see it. She acted in a way that warranted consequences for the betterment of the match. Did that alter the outcome? Who knows... but letting Serena continue to throw a temper tantrum could have exposed her opponent to stresses of her own that should not be warranted or supported or experienced by her opponent.
    Rules mean little when not enforced evenly and consistently. This train derailed when coaching penalty called during a grand slam final. Only reason he was coaching was because it is usually not called. A warning would have been more appropriate. Let the players play. Don't interfere.
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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by havanablast21 View Post
    I saw the entire outburst (after the fact).

    It wasn't so much Serena had to admit that she received coaching. She may of had no idea whatsoever. But the Coach admitted on camera that he was, in fact, trying to coach her. In a case like this, it is the player that receives the penalty for the coaches actions. Doesn't matter if Serena admitted she saw it or admitted she saw it. In her mind, she didn't get coached but the coach's actions suggested he was trying to coach her and his words clearly stated he was. Whether or not others are called for it is irrelevant in my opinion. He called something that HE SAW and what the coach admitted to doing. Serena got the warning... she chatted with the Ref and could have moved on.

    But if anyone expected the Ref to change his call just because Serena said "I wasn't receiving coaching" is a little ridiculous. Once the call is made it's made. There was no video review and even if there was, it would have shown Serena's coach flashing signals. Video review can't confirm or disprove if Serena caught the signals or not.

    But back to Serena... she got the warning and could have/should have moved on. I SEE NOTHING that could suggest Sexist action here. It's not like she was playing a man and this call favored the guy. No... 2 women playing. Once got called for her coach flashing signals. Deal with it. (Cops can't pull every speeder over... but if the one they do is female... is that sexist? )

    had she moved passed the issue which she herself said "I can understand how you would have thought that"... (again... how can a ref go back on his call just because she said that. Pandora's Box for him in the future)... the rest of the event is 100% the result of Serena's outburst and inability to manage her game and her temper.

    Slamming down her racket. Did he have to call that? no, but he was well within his rights to do so as the rules state and support the call.
    Is he sexist for calling it on Serena? Not sure how anyone but the Ref can truly state that. But her opponent was also a female, so why would sexism come into play? What if the ref was a woman and made the same calls?

    Then her inability to exercise class and decorum and endless chirping at the ref, threats (and she did threaten him, threaten his job "You'll never work another one of my matches") and eventual personal attack in calling him a Theif.. I would have done the very same thing. She was taking control of the match for all the wrong reasons. He had just as much responsibility to support Serena's opponent (again...a female) and maintain control of the match.

    Serena... any players for that matter... have duty to respect the Ref's in any sport. Choose not to (whether you think your justified or not) comes with consequence. That's how I see it. She acted in a way that warranted consequences for the betterment of the match. Did that alter the outcome? Who knows... but letting Serena continue to throw a temper tantrum could have exposed her opponent to stresses of her own that should not be warranted or supported or experienced by her opponent.
    I definitely get your point. Something to point out is that, in Tennis, the code violation for coaching has nothing to do with whether or not the player received it, it's whether or not the coach gave it. Even if Serena didn't see the coaching, according to the rules, the violation is because the designated coach was giving coaching. From a rules standpoint, if Serena didn't see it, it doesn't matter.

    While I see your point about "you broke the rules, so how can you argue that you shouldn't be penalized?", consistency is something that is absurdly horrible in Tennis. A ridiculously exaggerated analogy would be; how would you feel if you were told that somebody in authority installed a device in your car, and only your car, that would send a signal every time you went over the speed limit. When that happens, you get a fine. Your response might be "Hey, how come I am the only one who has to do this?" and you probably wouldn't be too easily convinced with the argument "Hey, if you didn't break the law, this never would have happened."

    If somebody breaks a racquet and does not get a code violation, you have to at some point, at least understand the frustration of somebody else who breaks a racquet and gets a code violation. When they say "Hey, how come I got one but they didn't?" can't we see that?

    One of the things that makes consistency tough when it comes to men vs women in Tennis, is that they don't play with the same rules. Yes they are paid the same. However, they use different balls, they have different rules regarding heat and injury, and several other differences. The most important difference, is that Men play best of 5 and Women play best of 3. When the rules are different, it clouds the consistency argument.

    Serena acted horribly. No question about it. Similarly behaving men will not get the same violations that she got. It's just that simple. When you look at it like that, a possibility of sexism has to be considered. Again, the consistency is the issue. I have seen Kyrgios break 4 racquets in a row before getting a warning that if he breaks a 5th, he will get a violation. There is a time violation which up until recently, was really never called. If they consistently called coaching, and every time somebody broke a racquet, and every time somebody said something a little too far to the umpire every time, then the only issue here would be Serena's horrible behaviour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renello View Post
    Rules mean little when not enforced evenly and consistently. This train derailed when coaching penalty called during a grand slam final. Only reason he was coaching was because it is usually not called. A warning would have been more appropriate. Let the players play. Don't interfere.


    And yet that’s exactly what she rec’d. A Warning. As per the rules.

    The point penalty came after the racket smash
    The Game penalty came after the endless personal attacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylant View Post
    I definitely get your point. Something to point out is that, in Tennis, the code violation for coaching has nothing to do with whether or not the player received it, it's whether or not the coach gave it. Even if Serena didn't see the coaching, according to the rules, the violation is because the designated coach was giving coaching. From a rules standpoint, if Serena didn't see it, it doesn't matter.

    While I see your point about "you broke the rules, so how can you argue that you shouldn't be penalized?", consistency is something that is absurdly horrible in Tennis. A ridiculously exaggerated analogy would be; how would you feel if you were told that somebody in authority installed a device in your car, and only your car, that would send a signal every time you went over the speed limit. When that happens, you get a fine. Your response might be "Hey, how come I am the only one who has to do this?" and you probably wouldn't be too easily convinced with the argument "Hey, if you didn't break the law, this never would have happened."

    If somebody breaks a racquet and does not get a code violation, you have to at some point, at least understand the frustration of somebody else who breaks a racquet and gets a code violation. When they say "Hey, how come I got one but they didn't?" can't we see that?

    One of the things that makes consistency tough when it comes to men vs women in Tennis, is that they don't play with the same rules. Yes they are paid the same. However, they use different balls, they have different rules regarding heat and injury, and several other differences. The most important difference, is that Men play best of 5 and Women play best of 3. When the rules are different, it clouds the consistency argument.

    Serena acted horribly. No question about it. Similarly behaving men will not get the same violations that she got. It's just that simple. When you look at it like that, a possibility of sexism has to be considered. Again, the consistency is the issue. I have seen Kyrgios break 4 racquets in a row before getting a warning that if he breaks a 5th, he will get a violation. There is a time violation which up until recently, was really never called. If they consistently called coaching, and every time somebody broke a racquet, and every time somebody said something a little too far to the umpire every time, then the only issue here would be Serena's horrible behaviour.

    Rylant
    I also can see your points to a degree. Not enough to assume the ref is sexist, but I agreed that Tennis lacks a governing body and therefore gross lack of consistency. But while the Ref’s judgement CAN be questioned, The culmination of Serena’s behaviour can not be justified or supported IMO. She has blame justified toward her and she’s coming across as too self riteous to accept that.

    In the end... her opponent can never get back what she was deserved in this tourny. I hope she sticks around to win a few more majors and enjoy the feeling that Serena has a record breaking number of times. (Sex has never held her back from Dominance and is certainly not justification for her behaviour)
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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by saucelife90 View Post
    The judge was Portuguese...
    Would you be implying here that a minority can't be racist to another, different minority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renello View Post
    Wow. Not how I see it at all. I put full and complete blame on the umpire. You call a coaching violation in a grand slam final? Really? Breaking the racket, no big deal, common place. I watched Osaka bang her racket in the same match too but it didn't break. The butt hurt umpire forced things off the rails. Sure Serena was getting beat but she quite commonly starts off poorly and gathers steam. That game penalty all but assured the final outcome. No this is not on Serena, in fact I found her composure quite amazing. She has had a lifetime of breaking down barriers and she was brave to stand up to that umpire. An umpire who didn't even give the Serena a warning. She defended herself in front of millions and her closest friends. I have seen way worse from men for sure. The worst she said was "thief". Wow. Very sorry that Osaka didn't get to celebrate like she should have but then it was a white moron umpire that slid this match off the rails for two women of color and great champions.
    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Would you be implying here that a minority can't be racist to another, different minority?
    Sorry, i was pointing out that it wasn't a "white moron umpire". Should have quoted it.

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/s...s-us-open.html

    "The chair umpire whom Serena Williams called a “thief” in the women’s singles final at the United States Open on Saturday has long been willing to enforce the rules by the book with the game’s biggest stars, male and female...Ramos is one of the most experienced match officials in tennis...He is the only active chair umpire to have officiated the men’s singles finals at all four of the Grand Slam tournaments, and he also presided over the 2012 men’s Olympic singles final between Andy Murray and Roger Federer."

    So, ahhhhh......maybe instead of being a sexist, racist pig, he's just a very qualified umpire who calls the rules as they are written....?

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    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/s...s-us-open.html

    "The chair umpire whom Serena Williams called a “thief” in the women’s singles final at the United States Open on Saturday has long been willing to enforce the rules by the book with the game’s biggest stars, male and female...Ramos is one of the most experienced match officials in tennis...He is the only active chair umpire to have officiated the men’s singles finals at all four of the Grand Slam tournaments, and he also presided over the 2012 men’s Olympic singles final between Andy Murray and Roger Federer."

    So, ahhhhh......maybe instead of being a sexist, racist pig, he's just a very qualified umpire who calls the rules as they are written....?
    Say it ain’t so ALS Revenge... you mean not every rule enforcer is a thieving sexist when the big stars don’t get their way??



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    Serena's outbursts and threats are uncalled for and make for a potentially unsafe workspace for those officials. How much verbal abuse should be tolerated before enough is enough? I guess she thinks that it's okay though because she doesn't believe that she should have been penalized for something she didn't see (coaching), yet she doesn't have the mental strength to cool it after a second violation (racquet smash). Sometimes, in officiated sports, the officials get it wrong. That was not the case here.

    Sexism? Weak excuse. Sad excuse for a supposed role model. It's easy to be a role model when things always go your way, but when things go off the rails, you lose your mind, berate officials for calling the rules as they are charged with. Sexism, officials, whatever excuse, but never look within or take responsibility for your own actions.

    If there are differences in officiating between the mens and womens games, that should be addressed at the appropriate time, not during a Grand Slam final.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Comish View Post
    Serena's outbursts and threats are uncalled for and make for a potentially unsafe workspace for those officials. How much verbal abuse should be tolerated before enough is enough? I guess she thinks that it's okay though because she doesn't believe that she should have been penalized for something she didn't see (coaching), yet she doesn't have the mental strength to cool it after a second violation (racquet smash). Sometimes, in officiated sports, the officials get it wrong. That was not the case here.

    Sexism? Weak excuse. Sad excuse for a supposed role model. It's easy to be a role model when things always go your way, but when things go off the rails, you lose your mind, berate officials for calling the rules as they are charged with. Sexism, officials, whatever excuse, but never look within or take responsibility for your own actions.

    If there are differences in officiating between the mens and womens games, that should be addressed at the appropriate time, not during a Grand Slam final.
    Yes!
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  14. #29
    Rylant's Avatar
    Rylant is online now
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    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/09/s...s-us-open.html

    "The chair umpire whom Serena Williams called a “thief” in the women’s singles final at the United States Open on Saturday has long been willing to enforce the rules by the book with the game’s biggest stars, male and female...Ramos is one of the most experienced match officials in tennis...He is the only active chair umpire to have officiated the men’s singles finals at all four of the Grand Slam tournaments, and he also presided over the 2012 men’s Olympic singles final between Andy Murray and Roger Federer."

    So, ahhhhh......maybe instead of being a sexist, racist pig, he's just a very qualified umpire who calls the rules as they are written....?
    Yes, there is no question that he is one of the best, and very qualified. If you read that article, however, many experts criticized him for being overly rigid in this case. For not giving her soft warnings as is normal in these situations, and for immediately jumping to a third code violation when that situation wouldn’t normally be called that way. He is not as consistent as he could be, and when you have Serena acting the way she was, it amplified the situation. I think there is fault on both sides.

    Sexism? Maybe not. But definite consistency issues.

    Rylant

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    Dobber Sports Juggernaut

    Default Re: Serena Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by The Comish View Post
    If there are differences in officiating between the mens and womens games, that should be addressed at the appropriate time, not during a Grand Slam final.
    My only issue with anything stated in this thread is this statement. It's equivalent to people saying "now isn't the time to talk about gun control" or the anthem "isn't the time to protest". The appropriate time to address it is when there is enough attention on it that change might actually happen.

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