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Thread: [trade] osuna to Astros

  1. #31
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to padres

    Quote Originally Posted by havanablast21 View Post
    circumstances are crap. Why did they need to trade him? Was he a cancer in the locker room? I get the pending charges...but why would the Astros take him on then. They could have gotten more.

    whatever... those two clowns continue to drive this team into the ground. Thanks for the Memories A.A. Signs point to another extended period of mediocrity which means... no playoffs.
    I really couldn't care less about baseball, but this team is in the ground because of the moves AA made to create those memories. This team would be where it is now regardless of who the management was.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to padres

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    I really couldn't care less about baseball, but this team is in the ground because of the moves AA made to create those memories. This team would be where it is now regardless of who the management was.
    Honestly though as a life long fan that was too young to experience the early 90s and appreciate it for what it was...it was pretty worth it to me. Was so nice seeing this team actually compete and go far after watching them toil for almost 2 decades.

    I think Shapiro and Atkins are doing a pretty solid job of retooling given the cards they were dealt.
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    I'm not commenting on whether it was or was not worth it. That's for each individual fan to decide.

    I'm just saying you can't blame the current regime for the decisions of the past regime. AA made moves that created those memories, and also drove the current state of the team. You simply can't say Shapiro and Atkins have driven this team into the ground. They'd be in this exact same scenario if AA was still in charge or if there was a different management team. Shapiro and Atkins didn't break Tulo, Donaldson, and Martin. They didn't make Osuna allegedly abuse a woman. The didn't turn Stroman into a thin skinned whiner who couldn't handle an arbitration case. They're not taking shots at Sanchez to make him always injured, and they didn't ask Happ to just completely fall apart as they were trying to trade him. The current state of the team is still largely what AA left them.

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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    I'm not commenting on whether it was or was not worth it. That's for each individual fan to decide.

    I'm just saying you can't blame the current regime for the decisions of the past regime. AA made moves that created those memories, and also drove the current state of the team. You simply can't say Shapiro and Atkins have driven this team into the ground. They'd be in this exact same scenario if AA was still in charge or if there was a different management team. Shapiro and Atkins didn't break Tulo, Donaldson, and Martin. They didn't make Osuna allegedly abuse a woman. The didn't turn Stroman into a thin skinned whiner who couldn't handle an arbitration case. They're not taking shots at Sanchez to make him always injured, and they didn't ask Happ to just completely fall apart as they were trying to trade him. The current state of the team is still largely what AA left them.
    Not disagreeing with that, but I would argue that at least with AA there was a direction, and he largely seemed to win more deals than he lost. With the current ownership, there doesn't seem to be much of a direction, nor is there a consensus on whether the deals they make being good or bad.

    We may not have been much better off if AA was in charge, you're right he did trade away a lot of the future, however, I would have more faith in him over the next few years steering this ship around than I would in current ownership.
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimo Brother View Post
    Not disagreeing with that, but I would argue that at least with AA there was a direction, and he largely seemed to win more deals than he lost. With the current ownership, there doesn't seem to be much of a direction, nor is there a consensus on whether the deals they make being good or bad.

    We may not have been much better off if AA was in charge, you're right he did trade away a lot of the future, however, I would have more faith in him over the next few years steering this ship around than I would in current ownership.
    I think that's based on a few fond memories more than actual results. AA didn't have much direction and vision, he just made a couple desperation deals with little eye to the future to save his job. It worked, for a while. And it was fun. And made fans like him and enjoy those moments. This management now has to rebuild, from a prospect pool that was left essentially bare for them and a lot of aging, untradeable assets. It's not fun, it's not sexy, and it doesn't breed fond memories. But the love in with AA is more based in nostalgia than competency.

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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Again, yes.

    You just can’t blame Shapiro and Atkins now.

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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Just some notes on the Tulo/Price trades:

    Price was traded for Boyd, Norris, and Labourt.

    Boyd has a 5.05ERA in 77games, 73 starts in his career. 4.53ERA this yr
    Norris has a 5.87ERA in 15IP, he’s on the 60-day DL
    Labourt was released by the White Sox earlier this yr

    Soooo, so far this is still a win by the Jays.

    Tulo+Hawkins for Reyes, Hoffman, Miguel Castro, and Jesus Tinoco.

    Castro was DFA’d before the 2017 season, now he’s on the Orioles

    Tinoco had like a 4.35ERA in High-A
    Hoffman has like a career 4.50ERA
    And we know about Reyes

    This really ends up being a lose-lose situation right now. The Rockies could have prolly gotten a better deal if they shopped Tulo, and not how the trade went down. But really in both trades, it all depends on if Hoffman and Norris/Boyd develop into legit starters.

    Does it suck now being stuck with Tulo’s bill now? Oh yeah. It also sucks he pretty much has done nothing with the Jays, especially when he was hurt for the playoffs. To say that AA destroyed their prospect depth…I dunno, Jays prospect depth was crap before the trade, and pretty much only lost Boyd, Norris, and Hoffman and so far, none have shown much consistent promise. I really like Hoffman, but looks like Colorado has ruined his numbers. But baseball trades are odd. Hoffman could just light it up now, Castro could turn into a top closer tmo.
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    I'd still like to have that RA Dickey deal back. Hated it then, still hate it. Ugh Syndergaard....


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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    I'd still like to have that RA Dickey deal back. Hated it then, still hate it. Ugh Syndergaard....
    Syndergaard is the only trade the Jays have done in the era I've followed that I truly regret happening. But I understand why they traded for a vet inning eater, but it was not the right veteran to get.

    But again, Syndergaard has had 2 seasons really. But I still regret it.
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    LW: Marchand, Couture (C), Parise, Dubois (LW)
    RW: Marner (C), Kessel, Keller (C, LW)
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    Syndergaard is the only trade the Jays have done in the era I've followed that I truly regret happening. But I understand why they traded for a vet inning eater, but it was not the right veteran to get.

    But again, Syndergaard has had 2 seasons really. But I still regret it.
    Fresh off a Cy Young too...arguably buying at the highest value he ever had.

    The only problem with assessing a trade with hindsight is you never know if things would have played out differently given a different scenario. I think the deal with Miami as well as the Dickey trade were especially tough because of the volume of seemingly high-value young talent we traded. (Syndergaard and Nicolino were 2 of the "big 3" we had coming up, Sanchez being the third). Alvarez was showing some talent, D'Arnaud was looking like he could develop into an all star catcher, and Hechavaria and Castro were showing some promise. Funny enough I think Desclafani was the least touted out of all the guys we dealt and he ended up being one of the only serviceable players.

    Anyway, like I've said before to me it was worth it. I think the important thing to note here too is that we also loaded up in years where the Yankees and Sox were going through their retooling phases, which made the all-in move make sense. Just didn't play out the way we hoped.
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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    To say that AA destroyed their prospect depth…I dunno, Jays prospect depth was crap before the trade, and pretty much only lost Boyd, Norris, and Hoffman and so far, none have shown much consistent promise. I really like Hoffman, but looks like Colorado has ruined his numbers. But baseball trades are odd. Hoffman could just light it up now, Castro could turn into a top closer tmo.
    AA was the GM since 2009 if they're prospect depth sucked before the trades, it was because of him. If their prospect depth sucked because of the trades, it was because of the trades.

    AA made moves that most fans feel was worth it, and that's totally fine, but it's revisionist history to say he had awesome results, a sterling reputation, or really a clear and concise direction for the team during his tenure. He got desperate, swung for the fences, and hit some memories. But he got desperate because he was doing a bad job and his job was on the line.

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    Default Re: [trade] osuna to Astros

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    AA was the GM since 2009 if they're prospect depth sucked before the trades, it was because of him. If their prospect depth sucked because of the trades, it was because of the trades.

    AA made moves that most fans feel was worth it, and that's totally fine, but it's revisionist history to say he had awesome results, a sterling reputation, or really a clear and concise direction for the team during his tenure. He got desperate, swung for the fences, and hit some memories. But he got desperate because he was doing a bad job and his job was on the line.
    I was pointing out to people who say AA destroyed their depth by the trade, it wasn't there before the trade. To "justify" what he did would be saying the prospect depth and talent level wouldn't have propelled the current team to playoff status, so might as well use that to go for it that yr.

    Like in poker when you wouldn't have enough for the blinds, so you might as well go all in on your current hand that could win a round.

    Oh well, I think they're prospect depth is actually really good. They traded Osuna and it is that. Oh welllllll
    12 team, H2H, 6 keeper league (Keepers in Bold)
    G, A, Pts, +/-, PPP, PIM, FW
    W, GAA, S%, Saves
    2C, 2RW, 2LW, 4D, 2G
    C: Eichel, Pettersson (C), Zibanejad,
    LW: Marchand, Couture (C), Parise, Dubois (LW)
    RW: Marner (C), Kessel, Keller (C, LW)
    D: Barrie, Yandle, Suter, Poluck
    G: Andersen (G), Dubnyk, Murray
    IR+: Karlsson

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