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Thread: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Kuch = real deal

    Eichel = somewhat of an enigma. 3 years in and there really is no solid consistency. Eichel will hopefully one day be As productive as Kuch is now. I’d take Kuch here straight up.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDoughty View Post
    I do think Eichel will be better, sooner, and for longer. I guess everyone can assume on their own what that might translate into and what it's worth to them, but it's worth it to me in the long term.

    As for the contract, who know's what he'll get, but everybody in this thread does know he deserves more than Eichel. If you're all in for next year, do the trade, take the cap relief, and worry about the future later. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Kuch get's 12+ mil a year after next season.
    So you're saying Kucherov gets more than Eichel because he's better than him? Your comments are somewhat confusing.

    Eichel was paid more than he deserves because he's their franchise player. Kucherov is maybe Tampa's 2nd or 3rd most valuable skater. I would be shocked if he got even the $10M Eichel got. He's most likely going to be somewhere between Hedman and Stamkos. If you start paying your wingers $12M, then what the heck are you paying the guys who matter the most, centers and defensemen?

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDoughty View Post
    I do think Eichel will be better, sooner, and for longer. I guess everyone can assume on their own what that might translate into and what it's worth to them, but it's worth it to me in the long term.
    Well Kucherov is only 24 and is coming off 100 and 85 point seasons. Eichel is 21, not 18, and is still in the 60s. Not sure I expect him to be better, let alone sooner. I mean, unless you think Kucherov is suddenly going to stop being an 85-100 point player? I project him for a steady diet of 86-94 points a year on average for the next 4-5 years. I'm not sure Eichel surpasses that.
    Yes, Eichel could flirt with a PPG - which he has - but that's another thing, this trend of Eichel getting hurt now two years in a row and playing less than 70 games. Not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDoughty View Post
    As for the contract, who know's what he'll get, but everybody in this thread does know he deserves more than Eichel. If you're all in for next year, do the trade, take the cap relief, and worry about the future later. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Kuch get's 12+ mil a year after next season.
    Everyone thought that when Kuch signed his last short extension. Stevie Y runs the Bolts the same way the Wings were run when he was there - all of the stars took slightly less so they could be part of a winning team. Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shahahan, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, etc. all took less at certain times to be part of the long-term plans. The same is happening in Tampa.
    And, don't forget, making 8.5 mil in Tampa (Florida) is like making 10 million in other markets, due to Florida's taxes. So dollar for dollar, if Kucherov is weighing staying in Tampa for 8.5 mil or playing in New York for 11 mil, the take home money is practically the same. So why leave a team that should contend for the Cup annually?
    I'm willing to bet Kucherov stays in Tampa long-term and his cap hit is nothing close to 12 mil a pop. IF he wins the Art Ross next year, he'll sign a 7 year / 65 mil contract IMO. If he finishes top-3 in scoring, he'll sign a 7 year / 58 mil contract. Either way his cap hit will be between 8.25 - 9.25 mil, which still places him 2nd on the Bolts salary chart ahead of Hedman.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    If we look at the "better, sooner, longer" part of that to be relate to age seasons, it could be true, since Eichel was better at 19 (Kucherov not in league) & 20 ( Kucherov's first year, not very productive). So he's been better sooner (started career sooner) and if he plays to same age and reaches about the same level, can get longer due to total duration.

    Eichel is now 21, and they are fairly similar at age 21 in total production. Kucherov has now proven to have another 2 levels after that: Healthy point-per-game season, and a healthy 100 point season, and he's done that by age 24. So Eichel needs to turn it up a notch both in play and in health. I'd be more worried about the health part than the play part.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    I don't think Kuch takes any sort of discount regardless of tax implications or whatever. He can, and should, get paid what he's worth on the open market. As a 100pt player that number is a real big one. Making the rest fit is Yzerman's concern, not Kuch's. And let's not forget Kuch has already given them two MEGA BARGAIN seasons already on his current bag-of-pennies contract. He's already doing his charitable work for the Lightning right now.

    Yeah, making $8.5M in Tampa might be the same as making $11M somewhere else, but you know what's even better? Making $11M in Tampa and keeping all $11M of it.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    In a points only cap league I think this is crazy. Likely I think kuch gets around 9 (I think they'll pay him more than stamkos as the cap is higher and he hit 100 points. As good as eichel could be, I'm not sure he ever hits 100 points. If this was for a MacKinnon/barkov/marchand etc type that is locked in at a 6m deal, then obviously it's a different discussion.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenInferno View Post
    I don't think Kuch takes any sort of discount regardless of tax implications or whatever. He can, and should, get paid what he's worth on the open market. As a 100pt player that number is a real big one. Making the rest fit is Yzerman's concern, not Kuch's. And let's not forget Kuch has already given them two MEGA BARGAIN seasons already on his current bag-of-pennies contract. He's already doing his charitable work for the Lightning right now.

    Yeah, making $8.5M in Tampa might be the same as making $11M somewhere else, but you know what's even better? Making $11M in Tampa and keeping all $11M of it.
    They won't keep all of it, it's just local/state taxes that come into play. But that could be a million dollar difference. Making 10M in Tampa on a great team may be worth more than making 11M in Buffalo.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by stevegamer View Post
    They won't keep all of it, it's just local/state taxes that come into play. But that could be a million dollar difference. Making 10M in Tampa on a great team may be worth more than making 11M in Buffalo.
    Well, according to CapFriendly's Post-Tax Earnings Calculator, you get the same net salary if you make $11M in Montreal or $8.5M in Tampa.

    But yes, the difference between Tampa and Buffalo isn't as big. $10M equals to $5.223M net salary in Buffalo whereas $8.5M equals to $5.178M in Tampa. So yeah, about million, million and a half is the difference between those two.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    I have Kucherov in a cap league, and truthfully if I had the cap space, I'd prefer Eichel. For the moment, Kucherov is the better player and costs considerably less, but Eichel has so much untapped potential that I'd prefer him, if money wasn't a factor. This is only a hunch I have, but I think Eichel outproduces Kucherov next year.

    Unfortunately for me, even if the Eichel owner in my league was willing to trade Eichel to me for Kucherov, I'd have to decline because I can't fit Eichel's salary onto my team. Already this past season I had to deal Kuznetsov for Ehlers, Byfuglien for Ristolainen, and Gostisbehere for Provorov to free up cap space.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaDawg View Post
    I have Kucherov in a cap league, and truthfully if I had the cap space, I'd prefer Eichel. For the moment, Kucherov is the better player and costs considerably less, but Eichel has so much untapped potential that I'd prefer him, if money wasn't a factor. This is only a hunch I have, but I think Eichel outproduces Kucherov next year.

    Unfortunately for me, even if the Eichel owner in my league was willing to trade Eichel to me for Kucherov, I'd have to decline because I can't fit Eichel's salary onto my team. Already this past season I had to deal Kuznetsov for Ehlers, Byfuglien for Ristolainen, and Gostisbehere for Provorov to free up cap space.
    This is excatly what my thought process is at the moment.

    The final deal was Kucherov for Eichel and Brannstrom which I declined. Time will tell if I was right.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinkers View Post
    This is excatly what my thought process is at the moment.

    The final deal was Kucherov for Eichel and Brannstrom which I declined. Time will tell if I was right.
    I feel like you'll kick yourself on this one. You turned down one of the top 3-5 skaters in the league PLUS one of the top D prospects not currently in the NHL in order to hold onto someone who has the opportunity to become what Kucherov already is. Plus, looking at the foreseeable future, even with Dahlen and Mittlestadt joining the roster, I'd still rather Kucherov's supporting cast (Stamkos, Johnson, Miller, Point, Hedman, Sergachev). Tampa is just the deeper team, and I honestly think that Kuch is at least as naturally talented, if not moreso, than Eichel.

    Give me proven production with an allstar supporting cast over a player with huge potential, but with a history of injury and a supporting cast that's getting better, but still not great. I honestly just think Kucherov helps a heck of a lot more to win a pool than Eichel.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    I think it is tough to give up Eichel, if you already own, out of fear that he will explode and reach his potential.

    I mean, it takes time for some players, but those who gave up on Mackinnon (for instance) are regretting it now after the season he just had. Eichel could very well do what Mackinnon just did. No disrespect to Rantanen, but prior to this past season no one thought Mackinnon's supporting cast was all that great either.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenInferno View Post
    I don't think Kuch takes any sort of discount regardless of tax implications or whatever. He can, and should, get paid what he's worth on the open market. As a 100pt player that number is a real big one. Making the rest fit is Yzerman's concern, not Kuch's. And let's not forget Kuch has already given them two MEGA BARGAIN seasons already on his current bag-of-pennies contract. He's already doing his charitable work for the Lightning right now.

    Yeah, making $8.5M in Tampa might be the same as making $11M somewhere else, but you know what's even better? Making $11M in Tampa and keeping all $11M of it.
    I actually think the fact that he's already taken a discount makes him more likely to work with Yzerman to keep the team in a position to contend for as long as possible. He could have skipped off to Russia and commanded an absolute fortune if he had wanted to instead of agreeing to the bridge contract. He clearly wants to win a cup, and thinks that Tampa has what it takes. That $1-1.5 million in tax savings is an easy concession for him to give up, especially if it means he has a better chance at winning a cup in the next 2-3 years.

    That said, it would be interesting if he signed for another short term deal at > $10, so that if things go south in Tampa, he can cash in as an FA while he's still in his prime.
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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by SeaDawg View Post
    I think it is tough to give up Eichel, if you already own, out of fear that he will explode and reach his potential.

    I mean, it takes time for some players, but those who gave up on Mackinnon (for instance) are regretting it now after the season he just had. Eichel could very well do what Mackinnon just did. No disrespect to Rantanen, but prior to this past season no one thought Mackinnon's supporting cast was all that great either.
    True enough. Although I don't think anyone who traded MacKinnon two summers ago for Malkin and Hanifin (just a hypothetical; insert whichever proven star plus top prospect to add context) would be complaining. I totally understand the mentality of wanting that next big player on your roster when they blow up, but why sacrifice an opportunity to go with a proven generational talent just to wait for Eichel to become one? I'd much rather have the better odds to win this year, next year, and the year after, instead of waiting for the possibility to compete three, four, five years from now.

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    Default Re: Value of Eichel vs Kucherov in a Cap League

    Quote Originally Posted by GavinC View Post
    I actually think the fact that he's already taken a discount makes him more likely to work with Yzerman to keep the team in a position to contend for as long as possible. He could have skipped off to Russia and commanded an absolute fortune if he had wanted to instead of agreeing to the bridge contract. He clearly wants to win a cup, and thinks that Tampa has what it takes. That $1-1.5 million in tax savings is an easy concession for him to give up, especially if it means he has a better chance at winning a cup in the next 2-3 years.

    That said, it would be interesting if he signed for another short term deal at > $10, so that if things go south in Tampa, he can cash in as an FA while he's still in his prime.
    I've read/heard reports that Kucherov and his agent are looking for a huge pay day on the next contract. Kucherov left a lot of money on the table the last contract, because he knew the team had more leverage than him. This time around, he is the party with all the leverage and he wants to get paid. Kuznetsov's massive contract won't help matters.

    I don't think there is any chance Kucherov goes to Russian, but I believe he fully expects to get paid what he is worth, and with the cap going up (due to the Vegas success, etc.), and Tampa having a little more payroll flexibility, I think Kucherov will get paid easily $10-$12 a year.
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