Making a Murderer Discussion (spoilers)

[havanablast21]

^Excellent post. (and some REP)
Now, time to get off the fence.

You are part of the jury as a resident of Manitowac County or neighboring county.
Given everything you know, from all sources ("documentary" and all other internet things)...
Guilty or Not Guilty?

perhaps not innocent, but definitely not guilty based solely on the inability of the Prosection to prove BEYOND ANY REASON OF DOUBT and the ineptness of the investigative team.

[GinFizz]

Not guilty.

Remember that initially the majority of the jurors voted not guilty. IIRC, only 2 were for the guilty side and they persuaded the jurors to see it their way.

[Nikerato]

^Excellent post. (and some REP)
Now, time to get off the fence.

You are part of the jury as a resident of Manitowac County or neighboring county.
Given everything you know, from all sources ("documentary" and all other internet things)...
Guilty or Not Guilty?

Haha, to provide an answer here would be to violate the perspective I wanted to bring to the table.

If the actual jury - which had to reach a verdict based on an incomplete investigation - had internal conflict regarding the nature of the evidence, then what hope would I have to reach a verdict based on outside information? I would say it would be unconscionable of me to provide you with my opinion based on the fact that I just don't know the facts as presented in the trial, or the facts representing the actual truth that I believe to be missing.

If I humour you and say that we live in a crazy world where juries are made up of random people on the internet and that their verdict may be based on random information found on said internet, and that I am a part of that jury, then I would have to say Steven Avery is not guilty due to reasonable doubt that the evidence as I know it is conclusive.

But I won't entertain that craziness because it's a deep dark rabbit hole =P

[The Guvnah]

Can't believe how many posters here think that Avery & Dassey are guilty. Unbelievable. The kid at least, there's no way that poor dullard is guilty. As for Avery, yes there are pieces of evidence left out of the documentary, but even with all the other stuff, I think the killer is still out there and that Manitowoc County just had a bone to grind with Avery.

[Rylant]

Just finished watching tonight, which is why I have avoided this thread up until now. With what I saw, I am of the camp that both Avery and Dassey are not guilty, and were set up. However, I am also VERY aware that it was very intentionally presented that way by Netflix. Guy goes to prison and is exonerated after 18 years of being wrongfully accused. He sues the state for the missing portion of his life, giving the Mantiwoc County Police department ample motive to set him up for a murder. He is found guilty of a second crime that he did not commit, which lands him in jail for life this time. That is pretty compelling television. Certainly much more compelling than "guy gets released from prison after serving years for a crime he didn't commit, has a tough time readjusting to life on the outside, so he murders a woman and ends up in jail; this time, he deserved it."

Rylant

[Axeman33]

Get ready for Season 3 I'd say.

https://fox11online.com/news/local/c...ry-murder-case

MANITOWOC (WLUK) -- The Wisconsin State Court of Appeals has decided a motion filed by Steven Avery's attorney to discuss new evidence will be heard by a lower court.

Avery's attorney, Kathleen Zellner, argues that investigators violated state law by mishandling evidence in the Teresa Halbach murder case.

Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, are serving life prison sentences for the 2005 killing in Manitowoc.

Zellner wants to have bones found in a gravel pit off of the Avery property tested to see if they are Halbach's. Should the bones belong to Halbach, Zellner argues it undermines the state’s theory of the case -- that she was killed and body burned on the Avery property.

Zellner also contends a 2011 report shows bone fragments were returned to the Halbach family, but the defense wasn’t notified. She argued the state acted in bad faith, violating Avery’s due process rights.

“The State, without notifying Mr. Avery and his attorneys and during the pendency of Mr. Avery's direct appeal, caused material and potentially exculpatory evidence to be transmitted to the Halbach family for its potential destruction by cremation or burial,” she wrote. “The State by its actions has implicitly admitted that the bones are not only human, but that they belong to Ms. Halbach. The State cannot credibly argue that it returned animal bones to the Halbach family for burial or cremation. The State's actions demand that further proceedings be conducted to determine if Mr. Avery's due process rights have been violated and if the State acted in bad faith in returning the suspected human bones to the Halbach family.

On Monday Zellner's motion to appeal was recommended to the Circuit Court for arguments.

Zellner tells FOX 11 in an email,

We are delighted the appellate court granted the motion to remand to the circuit court to supplement the record with our new evidence that the State has destroyed material evidence by giving the bones back to the Halbach family. We believe Mr. Avery will be granted a new trial for this serious violation of both Wisconsin and federal law."

She also shared her reaction on Twitter Monday.

According to online court documents, Zellner will be allowed to pursue a supplemental postconviction hearing. The Circuit Court will address Zellner's claims and enter an order about its findings and conclusions.

A date for when the motion hearing will take place has not yet been set.

- - - Updated - - -

Get ready for Season 3 I'd say.

https://fox11online.com/news/local/c...ry-murder-case

MANITOWOC (WLUK) -- The Wisconsin State Court of Appeals has decided a motion filed by Steven Avery's attorney to discuss new evidence will be heard by a lower court.

Avery's attorney, Kathleen Zellner, argues that investigators violated state law by mishandling evidence in the Teresa Halbach murder case.

Avery and his nephew, Brendan Dassey, are serving life prison sentences for the 2005 killing in Manitowoc.

Zellner wants to have bones found in a gravel pit off of the Avery property tested to see if they are Halbach's. Should the bones belong to Halbach, Zellner argues it undermines the state’s theory of the case -- that she was killed and body burned on the Avery property.

Zellner also contends a 2011 report shows bone fragments were returned to the Halbach family, but the defense wasn’t notified. She argued the state acted in bad faith, violating Avery’s due process rights.

“The State, without notifying Mr. Avery and his attorneys and during the pendency of Mr. Avery's direct appeal, caused material and potentially exculpatory evidence to be transmitted to the Halbach family for its potential destruction by cremation or burial,” she wrote. “The State by its actions has implicitly admitted that the bones are not only human, but that they belong to Ms. Halbach. The State cannot credibly argue that it returned animal bones to the Halbach family for burial or cremation. The State's actions demand that further proceedings be conducted to determine if Mr. Avery's due process rights have been violated and if the State acted in bad faith in returning the suspected human bones to the Halbach family.

On Monday Zellner's motion to appeal was recommended to the Circuit Court for arguments.

Zellner tells FOX 11 in an email,

We are delighted the appellate court granted the motion to remand to the circuit court to supplement the record with our new evidence that the State has destroyed material evidence by giving the bones back to the Halbach family. We believe Mr. Avery will be granted a new trial for this serious violation of both Wisconsin and federal law."

She also shared her reaction on Twitter Monday.

According to online court documents, Zellner will be allowed to pursue a supplemental postconviction hearing. The Circuit Court will address Zellner's claims and enter an order about its findings and conclusions.

A date for when the motion hearing will take place has not yet been set.

[saucelife90]

Anyone who's watched season 2 and still believes he's guilty needs to give their head a shake.

[hockeyrobot]

Anyone who's watched season 2 and still believes he's guilty needs to give their head a shake.

Season 1 pretty much confirmed that for me. I don't think this famous defense attorney would take the case if she didn't know what she was doing.

[Godin]

His brother in law, if I remember correctly, is the one that should be in jail.

[Dobber]

I actually suspected Teresa Halbech's brother. Right from the very start, from his talking to the press while they were searching for her when she was missing. To how easily he ignores the flaws in the case. If my sister was killed, I would want justice in the form of catching the actual killer. What do you guys feel about this? Every time I see the guy I don't trust him. Not saying he did it, just saying something itches the back of my brain

And say what you will about Steven Avery, his nephew was completely blindsided by all this. Brandon may be slow and a bit of a low life, but he had nothing to do with this.

[Axeman33]

I actually suspected Teresa Halbech's brother. Right from the very start, from his talking to the press while they were searching for her when she was missing. To how easily he ignores the flaws in the case. If my sister was killed, I would want justice in the form of catching the actual killer. What do you guys feel about this? Every time I see the guy I don't trust him. Not saying he did it, just saying something itches the back of my brain

And say what you will about Steven Avery, his nephew was completely blindsided by all this. Brandon may be slow and a bit of a low life, but he had nothing to do with this.

There's no doubt that Dassey got taken advantage of, by many, many people, including the police and the criminal justice system in general. It was hard not to feel sorry for him.

[saucelife90]

There's no doubt that Dassey got taken advantage of, by many, many people, including the police and the criminal justice system in general. It was hard not to feel sorry for him.

The kid just told them what they were coercing him into saying, thinking he was going to be able to leave and watch WrestleMania. That interrogation was cringe worthy.

[Godin]

If I may. There was another high profile documentary on Michael Peterson, a writer, a Durham North Carolina mayoral canditate and veteran, who was convicted of killing his wife who was a Director with Nortel. He claims she fell down the stairs but there is evidence and circumstances that suggested otherwise. He was found guilty in the 1st trial. He then appealed his conviction and had a 2nd trial. His family were 100% behind him.

During the investigation, it was discovered that while he lived in Germany, a good friend and neighbor of his had died in a similar manner. She fell down the stairs. It was originally ruled an accident but when her body was exhumed, they found the same head injuries as Kathleen.

This is another case of did he or didn't he and seems like there is a 50 50 split. I totally believe he did it! I won't say what happened in the 2nd trial, but it was quite a trial and worth watching.

[saucelife90]

If I may. There was another high profile documentary on Michael Peterson, a writer, a Durham North Carolina mayoral canditate and veteran, who was convicted of killing his wife who was a Director with Nortel. He claims she fell down the stairs but there is evidence and circumstances that suggested otherwise. He then appealed his conviction and had a 2nd trial. His family were 100% behind him.

During the investigation, it was discovered that while he lived in Germany, a good friend and neighbor of his had died in a similar manner. She fell down the stairs. It was originally ruled an accident but when her body was exhumed, they found the same head injuries as Kathleen.

This is another case of did he or didn't he and seems like there is a 50 50 split. I totally believe he did it! I won't say what happened in the 2nd trial, but it was quite a trial and worth watching.

This one wasn't AS messed up as the MAM case, however the judicial system played a sketchy role in the outcome. At the end, I was around 45guilty/55not guilty.

[metaldude26]

If I may. There was another high profile documentary on Michael Peterson, a writer, a Durham North Carolina mayoral canditate and veteran, who was convicted of killing his wife who was a Director with Nortel. He claims she fell down the stairs but there is evidence and circumstances that suggested otherwise. He was found guilty in the 1st trial. He then appealed his conviction and had a 2nd trial. His family were 100% behind him.

During the investigation, it was discovered that while he lived in Germany, a good friend and neighbor of his had died in a similar manner. She fell down the stairs. It was originally ruled an accident but when her body was exhumed, they found the same head injuries as Kathleen.

This is another case of did he or didn't he and seems like there is a 50 50 split. I totally believe he did it! I won't say what happened in the 2nd trial, but it was quite a trial and worth watching.

The Staircase is also available on Netflix, I believe.