Better all around Defenceman

[Big Ev]

1. Doughty
2. Keith
3. Karlsson
4. Weber
5. Hedman

Karlsson isn't nearly as bad defensively as some make him out to be. He controls the play and tempo better than any D on the planet IMO. He's still a kid and we'll see his best hockey (all-around) from age 28-32.

Here's the thing about Hedman though - if he continues to play like he did in the playoffs (and Finals) he could SOON be the best all-around defenseman in the world and win a couple of Norris' himself. I need to see a little more of him at this elite level though. But he's already a monster. I also think Ekman-Larsson will soon be Top-5 material.

hedmans offense wasnt great in the playoffs. He won't be winning mortises playing like that.

edit: also You're right about OEL. He's better than Hedman.

[Jordyr77]

hedmans offense wasnt great in the playoffs. He won't be winning mortises playing like that.

We are both on opposite end of the spectrums so you will defend him forever like you do on every damn forum regardless. I think he shouldn't have won the Norris so I will continue to say he's overrated in terms of real life value. But just reading news articles and experts opinions I think the consensus opinion is that his D is flawed. And did you not listen to the commentators lol, they explained it perfectly. He got lucky to have broken up that play. And even somehow got embarrassed by Marchand. You can find clips, but none that bad of an elite defenseman.

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He won't win a mortise but he might win a Norris! He was phenomenal in the playoffs on every end of the rink. He was one of the best players in the series.

[rainydrinkwater]

Hedman is a stud. There's no doubt.

But let's play a game.

Individually take any #1 D on the 29 other teams and swap him for Karlsson on the Sens. Now tell me which #1D traded for Karlsson made the sens better?

Now take Erik Karlsson and put him in place of the #1D from the 29 other teams. Which NHL team suffered for adding Karlsson and subtracting their current #1?

In my opinion, the only answer that I accept as an argument is Drew Doughty. What does Keith do for the Hawks that EK couldn't? Play tough defensive assignments ? Check again. Flip Keith and EK and I can't imagine what this Hawks dynasty would turn into. Do you guys think Weber plays D like Scott Stevens or Rob Blake or something? Weber is tremendous athlete who can play massive minutes but I think he's lost the smallest of steps and isn't in the top 3/4 anymore, maybe in the next 3/4.

It's no coincidence that both DD and EK find yet another gear when the chips are down and lights are on. Playoffs, internationals. Doughty was arguably Canada best, most consistent player. Karlsson was epic for Sweden.

Sometimes I take influence over "all around" any how. McDonagh is better all around then Subban (and proly have both thee guys in my top tier, real life D). PK can find levels of domination during games that few have. I want him personally.

NHL has a re-draft, Karlsson goes is 1st D ranked by majority of teams. Maybe Doughty.

One last thing on Karlssons D abilities. He's never gonna be Chelios or Bourque. Or even a more cerebral player defending like Lidstrom and because of the nature of his game, he will cough up the puck, get caught pinching etc. However, when he's on the ice, the scoring chances for/against ratio dramatically tilts in the sens favour. He tilts the ice toward the opposition. That, is his defensive contribution.

[Big Ev]

We are both on opposite end of the spectrums so you will defend him forever like you do on every damn forum regardless. I think he shouldn't have won the Norris so I will continue to say he's overrated in terms of real life value. But just reading news articles and experts opinions I think the consensus opinion is that his D is flawed. And did you not listen to the commentators lol, they explained it perfectly. He got lucky to have broken up that play. And even somehow got embarrassed by Marchand. You can find clips, but none that bad of an elite defenseman.

i defend him against stupid, uninformed opinions. I listened to the announcers. Like I said they were dead wrong about the play on Crosby (and bob errey is a dumb **** so it's not surprising he would say something like this). He literally broke up the play and got the puck away from the Penguins. Lucky? He did his ****ing job. Marchand? He kept him to the outside then skated too far and got beat (this was the season where he wasn't as good as he is now because he was recovering from a torn Achilles). You can continue to think he shouldn't have won the Norris, but when a guy wins two of them then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion.

Like I said shit happens and you can find clips like that for any defenceman in the game, if they're actually uploaded. Most times they're not unless a goal is scored as a result of the mistake. But for Karlsson oh no we have to show every mistake he makes eh. Funny you won't find clips of him playing against a guy like a Ovechkin and containing him and taking the puck away from him all game. I've seen that happen more than one game against the Caps. you are incredibly naive if you think even the best players in the world don't make mistakes like that. Happens to everyone. Wasn't Shea weber on the ice for the infamous Bobby Ryan goal?

[Jordyr77]

It's alright, I know you're a sens fan.

[Big Ev]

Hedman is a stud. There's no doubt.

But let's play a game.

Individually take any #1 D on the 29 other teams and swap him for Karlsson on the Sens. Now tell me which #1D traded for Karlsson made the sens better?

Now take Erik Karlsson and put him in place of the #1D from the 29 other teams. Which NHL team suffered for adding Karlsson and subtracting their current #1.

In my opinion, the only answer that I accept as an argument is Drew Doughty. What does Keith do for the Hawks that EK couldn't? Play tough defensive assignments ? Check again. Flip Keith and EK and I can't imagine what this Hawks dynasty would turn into. Do you guys think Weber plays D like Scott Stevens or Rob Blake or something? Weber is tremendous athlete who can play massive minutes but I think he's lost the smallest of steps and isn't in the top 3/4 anymore, maybe in the next 3/4.

It's no coincidence that both DD and EK find yet another gear when the chips are down and lights are on. Playoffs, internationals. Doughty was arguably Canada best, most consistent player. Karlsson was epic for Sweden.

Sometimes I take influence over "all around" any how. McDonagh is better all around then Subban (and proly have both thee guys in my top tier, real life D). PK can find levels of domination during games that few have. I want him personally.

NHL has a re-draft, Karlsson goes is 1st D ranked by majority of teams. Maybe Doughty.

One last thing on Karlssons D abilities. He's never gonna be Chelios or Bourque. Or even a more cerebral player defending like Lidstrom and because of the nature of his game, he will cough up the puck, get caught pinching etc. However, when he's on the ice, the scoring chances for/against ratio dramatically tilts in the sens favour. He tilts the ice toward the opposition. That, is his defensive contribution.

Great post. Doughty is the only guy I think can be argued here.

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It's alright, I know you're a sens fan.

yup, and one who actually knows what he's talking about and not blindly following media people and "experts" because they don't actually watch the guy play. Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I can't add my voice. sens fans know more about Karlssom than anybody else. We don't just blindly praise and compare every sens player to other elite players.

You're the same guy who said Karlsson fell at the draft....

[Jordyr77]

Great post. Doughty is the only guy I think can be argued here.

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yup, and one who actually knows what he's talking about and not blindly following media people and "experts" because they don't actually watch the guy play. Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I can't add my voice. sens fans know more about Karlssom than anybody else. We don't just blindly praise and compare every sens player to other elite players.

You're the same guy who said Karlsson fell at the draft....

wow, that's really insulting....
Considering he is a generational offensive talent he clearly wasn't drafted where he should've been. Could've gone much higher if there weren't questions about his defensive liabilities. It is hard to take you seriously with all the trolling you do around here anyways. But this was fun.

[jmouland]

Can someone re-name this thread, "Trolling Big Ev"?

I think Karlsson is a much better all around Dman. Having the puck on your stick is the best way to prevent the other team from scoring....

unless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VUWdMfmtvA

[Big Ev]

wow, that's really insulting....
Considering he is a generational offensive talent he clearly wasn't drafted where he should've been. Could've gone much higher if there weren't questions about his defensive liabilities. It is hard to take you seriously with all the trolling you do around here anyways. But this was fun.

Good lord...im no way shape or form did he fall at the draft. It was the opposite - he was a draft riser. Obviously today he should have gone much higher, but that is not what falling at the draft means. Most people had no idea who he was to even talk about any question marks.

[Big Ev]

Can someone re-name this thread, "Trolling Big Ev"?

I think Karlsson is a much better all around Dman. Having the puck on your stick is the best way to prevent the other team from scoring....

unless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VUWdMfmtvA

It's all good. I get more worked up about it then I should. I will now exit the conversation.

[Zorro]

1. Doughty
2. Weber
3. E.Karlsson
4. Keith
5. Pietrangelo

[stotan]

Gents, I agree hands-down Karlsson steals this debate. But what about J. Carlson? If there's another defencemen I relate the term "beast" too, it's him. And now that he's beginning to rack up some pretty impressive points and is the go-to guy on WSH with Green gone, I'd put him in this discussion, too.

REAL LIFE
1. Karlsson
2. Doughty
3. Carlson
4. Weber
5. Keith
(honorable mention: Suter)

FANTASY
1. Karlsson
2. Subban
3. Carlson
4. Weber
5. Josi

[Dennis4022]

Hedman kind of just had his coming out party, which would explain his absence. Not to mention Claude Giroux was left off a time if you're going to use the Olympics as a gauge for who's better than who. I still think Karlsson is a generational talent offensively, but his game is really not that well rounded when compared to some others.

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I would not say above average defensively, that's a little bold. He's definitely average though, not below.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuWJXXqQ8kA lol

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that is some terrible terrible d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PAA-725ob8

[Daydream Nation]

In my opinion, the only answer that I accept as an argument is Drew Doughty. What does Keith do for the Hawks that EK couldn't? Play tough defensive assignments ? Check again. Flip Keith and EK and I can't imagine what this Hawks dynasty would turn into.
[/B]

The Hawks have won their Cups with defense and for two of their three Cups, Keith was the best player for the Hawks. He's been their MVP of this era. If you were to swap DK and Karlsson, the Hawks probably still win their their 2010 Cup but I doubt they win 2013 and 2015. Many people look at Keith's points but they are just a by-product of his game. His strength is his breaking up plays in his own zone and transitioning the puck back the opposite direction which allows the Hawks to drive possession. The Hawks are possession team and the two players most responsible for this are Duncan Keith and Jonathon Toews. Obviously, Karlsson outshines Keith in the offensive zone but when I hear people continually say Karlsson is merely average defensively, that is all I need to hear when comparing the two.

[Nikerato]

I voted Karlsson.

My list would be Doughty, Karlsson, Keith, Weber, Subban.

To me, all of these guys can play 30min a night; which automatically puts Suter in this conversation but he just doesn't have the offence to make it. Doughty is the clear winner defensively, while Karlsson is the clear winner offensively. The reason I think Doughty is the best (although really, not by much) is because offensive opportunities are limited by his team and coach. Put him on the Sens in the same role and I think he would pot 65+ points too. Put Karlsson on the kings in the same role and I think he would be limited to 45-50 points too; and he would perform at an elite level on the defensive end.