Batting the Pitcher Eighth

[NAParker77]

Here is an interesting article and video on Joe Maddon's reasoning from batting the pitcher in the eight-hole.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/13...go-cubs-lineup

[2014olympicgold]

i don’t like the fact pitchers have to hit in one league but not the other. Personally I much rather it be no pitcher hits unless you want them to DH. There’s always 1 pitcher that gets hurt when hitting in a yr. How does a (pretty much) auto-out and tiring the pitchers help the game?

[NAParker77]

I prefer the National League game, as it is more strategic, in my opinion.

Adam Wainwright fantasy owners, and I was one in a couple important places, agree with you, though.

[Pengwin7]

I don't feel like chasing it down... but when I was really big into fantasy baseball (~2000), I remember reading articles that statistical models showed that batting the pitcher #8 was the best spot.
Those articles are probably floating out on the internet somewhere.

But... much like the numbers-pundits in hockey... I think managers don't want to take the heat off "bucking the trend".
It's notable that Maddon won't reference the numbers - he'll just say "I like it".

Ol' school athletes, coaches, and scouts (in any sport) are usually pretty stubborn about admitting that somebody studying numbers might know something they don't.

But... from what I remember... when I read it back around 2000... it was overwhelming support for batting the pitcher #8.
I just skimmed this article quickly (busy) at work, but it said the Cubs would be better with Jon-swingandamiss-Lester batting #8 rather than #9.

Thumbs up from me.
Wish more managers weren't so stubborn.

[LawMan]

I read the article a couple of days ago and really like what Maddon had to say. I'm mainly a Jays and AL fan so I don't get to watch the NL, with the added layer of strategy, all that often. The article peaked my interest because the Jays just finished a series in Washington so one of the few games I'll watch this year with pitcher's hitting.

Lots to think about for sure and some decent arguments either way. My favourite part of the article was this:

Well, maybe they should see this. It's the baseballmusings.com lineup analysis tool. And just for fun, we fed the Cubs' most common lineup into it this week -- with the pitcher hitting ninth and Russell eighth, and vice-versa -- just to see what it would tell us.

We even used Lester as the pitcher, since, at 0-for-61 lifetime, he owned the worst offensive numbers of any pitcher in history. And guess what? The simulator projected the Cubs would score 45 more runs this year with Lester in the 8-hole than they would if he were in the 9-hole.

Now that's using current stats, which might be too small a sample. So our esteemed colleague Dan Szymborski, master of the fabled ZIPS projection system, plugged in the projections for the rest of the season and ran the simulation again. His data projected the Cubs would actually score eight more runs with Lester hitting ninth than they would if he hit eighth.

So neither side could claim absolute victory in the argument. I think more important than a manager saying "I'm only doing it this way" is the manager understanding why he would bat the pitcher 8th, and, in what situations it might make sense. The Cubs seem to have a situation where it makes sense.

On the issue of the DH I'm torn. It's annoying that pitchers' collective batting average is so low that a pitcher hit is a total novelty. Also, I think the game has evolved to a point where pitchers never have a hope of succeeding at the plate. Most development leagues use the DH rule for fear of injury and even once in the big leagues they don't practice hitting for fear of injury. It's gotten to a point where you pitcher either bunts or takes 3 brutal swings and you hope he doesn't hurt himself. Also, it sucks to see a guy who knows he's not going to get a hit still hurt himself in the process.

I do like the strategy aspect of double-switches and what not later in the game but wish it was based around pitchers having even a .100 average or so, then the decisions would be better. All in all I'm not sure if the game would benefit from the NL adding the DH rule or not.

[NAParker77]

I'm a Cubs fan, and watch the majority of games in entirety.

I like the fact that Bryant and Rizzo are receiving first-inning at-bats, and as Maddon mentions, Russell - Fowler - Bryant - Rizzo are a nice string after the first inning.