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Thread: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Instant Karma View Post
    Of couse his contract is an issue. It's the driving issue.

    They didn't just wake up one moring and decide that they can do better. They want to be free of the contract, not necessarily the player.

    They don't want another Kessel with another Kessel contact. That's not in their plans.
    I was referring to the trading partner. The contract should have no bearing for the trading partner because Kessel is worth his contract. If a team needs a Kessel caliber player, that is what they have to pay.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godin View Post
    Those are decent percentages and yes, you do take some risks when rebuilding but, you don't take those risks with an asset like Kessel because you end up taking steps backwards. I would likely agree with you if he was 30+ years old and not in his prime at 27. I think something would have to be added to the pick for insurance. Looking at the last 20 years, there isn't one player that comes close to Kessel from the 6 spot. There have been the likes of M. Koivu, OEL, Hartnell, Brassard, S. Gagner, Upshall, Michalek, Filatov and Brule just to name a few of the better ones. Nothing but inconsistency there. Regardless, trading Kessel is probably in their best interest since they won't be competitive until he is well into his 30's anyway, but get a sure thing for a sure thing. His contract shouldn't be an issue because thats what players of his caliber are making anyhow.

    Edit; This is a reply to 4horsemen.
    Monahan? I'd take Monahan over Kessel today.

    Plus. It's impossible to hone in on the 6 spot. Different teams would do different things at that spot. In 2010, Skinner was 7 and Granlund was 9, and Tank was 16. Tank might be too far away, but I'm sure other teams had Skinner and Granlund over Connolly. 2011, You've got Ziba, Schiefele, Couturier, Hamilton. 2012, you've got Filip Forsberg at 11 who fell from his predraft ranking, aong with Lindholm, Pouliot, Dumba, and Trouba. 2013 you've got Monahan, Horvat, Nichuskin. At #6 Last year, you've probably got the Leafs still taking Nylander, but you've also got Ehlers, Virtanen, and Ritchie. Even going back to 2009, you've got OEL at #6. It doesn't make any sense to look at the last 20 years of drafting when scouting has chnaged and become so much better in the last 6-8 years. I think lots of guys listed above would be a pretty solid return for a rebuilding Leafs team for Kessel.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    The 6th straight up seems fair but i think most teams would rather add a little more and shed some salary in the process.
    Florida is the most interesting place to imagine him landing IMO.
    Trochek, Kulikov, 1st, & maybe one other asset for Kessel and Percy?
    I added Percy in case Florida was looking for a cheap, nearly nhl ready dman to replace Kulikov.

    Someone like Jokinen is an ok asset to take back too to meet ends meet from a salary perspective.
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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Monahan? I'd take Monahan over Kessel today.

    Plus. It's impossible to hone in on the 6 spot. Different teams would do different things at that spot. In 2010, Skinner was 7 and Granlund was 9, and Tank was 16. Tank might be too far away, but I'm sure other teams had Skinner and Granlund over Connolly. 2011, You've got Ziba, Schiefele, Couturier, Hamilton. 2012, you've got Filip Forsberg at 11 who fell from his predraft ranking, aong with Lindholm, Pouliot, Dumba, and Trouba. 2013 you've got Monahan, Horvat, Nichuskin. At #6 Last year, you've probably got the Leafs still taking Nylander, but you've also got Ehlers, Virtanen, and Ritchie. Even going back to 2009, you've got OEL at #6. It doesn't make any sense to look at the last 20 years of drafting when scouting has chnaged and become so much better in the last 6-8 years. I think lots of guys listed above would be a pretty solid return for a rebuilding Leafs team for Kessel.
    I understand that. Heck, there is also Zetterbeg at 210. Datsyuk at 171 and so on. What i'm saying is, Kessel is a proven commodity and paid accordingly. Skinner at #7 has been inconsistent at best. You don't know what you are getting from him year to year. Granlund took a step back this year. I guess being Russian scared teams away from Tarasenko at the draft and St. Louis benefited from that. Although, they may not have taken him with an earlier pick either. It's kind of like being in the 'big blind' position in poker.
    The jury is still out on guys like Shiefele, Couturier, Hamilton and the others drafted since. Yes, Forsberg has been a very nice surprise from the 11 spot and Monahan is looking good, but they are still very early in their careers. The further you get away from the first overall, the riskier the pick is, where in Kessel, a team knows what they are getting. I'm just saying that when you trade a proven asset for a pick, it is a huge gamble unless it is the #1 pick, and even those aren't sure things, so get something else with it.
    As far as changes go in scouting, it is all relative.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godin View Post
    As far as changes go in scouting, it is all relative.
    Relative to what? You're much less likely to bust at #6 now than you were 20 years ago. That's not relative to anything.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Relative to what? You're much less likely to bust at #6 now than you were 20 years ago. That's not relative to anything.
    I disagree. The improvement in scouting shows up more in the later rounds. The first round is pretty clear to everyone. Paul Coffey, John McLean, Vincent Damphousse, Corey Stillman, Peter Forsberg and Ryan Smyth were actually all drafted at #6 between 1980 and 1994. That would suggest that scouting has actually worsened. Could be because teams over think it but probably because the talent gap has narrowed.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Godin - in theory I understand why you'd want/expect more for Kessel but realistically he is an entirely one dimensional player with questionable character so not something GM's are going to be lining up to pay comparable assets for. If the Leafs marry themselves to the idea that they need a guy who can put up Kessel points in return for Kessel then this time next year they will still own....you guessed it....Kessel! If they insist in NHLers (which I think is a mistake) then they'll have to accept that they'll be immediately giving up quality and probably accepting quantity in return. If, on the other hand, they are fully committed to the rebuild then they should take a pick that could net them a player of comparable value to Kessel in the long run. The other thing to remember with Kessel is that wingers are by far the least valuable asset in the NHL. Top line C's and 1st pairing D are almost never involved in trades for wingers (hell, they're hardly ever involved in trades period) and given that teams never win the cup without a solid top line C or a solid top pairing D then you are almost forced to draft and develop those assets yourself, hence the need for the high picks. The trades this summer will not look good to Leafs fans but they're part of the painful process of rebuilding and must be done

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Big name players rarely (if ever) fetch fair value on the trade market these days.


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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4horsemen View Post
    Godin - in theory I understand why you'd want/expect more for Kessel but realistically he is an entirely one dimensional player with questionable character so not something GM's are going to be lining up to pay comparable assets for. If the Leafs marry themselves to the idea that they need a guy who can put up Kessel points in return for Kessel then this time next year they will still own....you guessed it....Kessel! If they insist in NHLers (which I think is a mistake) then they'll have to accept that they'll be immediately giving up quality and probably accepting quantity in return. If, on the other hand, they are fully committed to the rebuild then they should take a pick that could net them a player of comparable value to Kessel in the long run. The other thing to remember with Kessel is that wingers are by far the least valuable asset in the NHL. Top line C's and 1st pairing D are almost never involved in trades for wingers (hell, they're hardly ever involved in trades period) and given that teams never win the cup without a solid top line C or a solid top pairing D then you are almost forced to draft and develop those assets yourself, hence the need for the high picks. The trades this summer will not look good to Leafs fans but they're part of the painful process of rebuilding and must be done
    Well said. You take the risk that it's likely you don't get a player who can match Kessel's production (especially right off the bat), rather you acquire valuable assets that can play for below market value for a number of years and hopefully contribute to a winning team once in a few years time.
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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    I am shocked that anyone on this site thinks Kessel for a 6th overall is a good fair deal, even in this draft. Kessel is entering his prime and has proven to be a top 5 scorer in the league over the past 4 years. He's not a centerpiece you build around but he's an incredibly valuable asset and you don't just trade him for 1 high pick that may or may not work out regardless of what his salary is what state your team is in.

    The 6th overall is a start to a deal. There needs to be additional assets in the form of picks or prospects, and yes salary as well, going to Toronto before this trade makes any sense.

    I agree with the other sentiment that this doesn't make sense for the Devils to do either.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    Your computer wont explode. I clicked the link and read the story.

    I don't think it's a stretch to think something like this is quite possible. I think it's a mistake for the Devils to trade their pick as I think they need the young players this draft would offer. They aren't that close that they should be dealing their high picks for "scoring".
    9th for Schneider was a great move by them a couple of years ago. 6th for Kessel would be another solid move IMO.

    I mean think about it; let's say they kept that 9th pick and drafted Horvat... Not sure they would be better even in 3 years from now. Of course everything is relative, but landing top-end talent for high draft picks is a great move IMO, whether you are rebuilding or not!
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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godin View Post
    Yes, Forsberg has been a very nice surprise from the 11 spot
    Forsberg was supposed to go top-3 in that draft. Falling to 11th was a steal for Washington (now Nashville).

    I know this was a bit off topic, but I figured since we were discussing busts and surprises, I would add my 2cents
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    W- Forsberg, Batherson, Nichuskin, Tuch, Konecny, Maccelli, Sharangovich, Bertuzzi, Kaliyev, Neighbours, Reichel
    D- Carlson, Rielly, Klingberg
    G- Hellebuyck, Demko, Merzlikins, Vejmelka

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  13. #43
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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    I wouldn't trade Kessel for the 6th pick, no way.

    I actually think Kessel's contract will look pretty good going forward as the cap rises.

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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    I wouldn't trade Kessel for the 6th pick, no way.

    I actually think Kessel's contract will look pretty good going forward as the cap rises.
    Agreed! I do not know what is up with everyone (NHL and Fantasy experts alike) and their low perception of Kessel's value... He is in his prime years and had an AVERAGE season by his standards!!

    I know I am actively going to try to land him in the offseason; pretty sure a couple of NHL GM's will do the same in real-life!
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    W- Forsberg, Batherson, Nichuskin, Tuch, Konecny, Maccelli, Sharangovich, Bertuzzi, Kaliyev, Neighbours, Reichel
    D- Carlson, Rielly, Klingberg
    G- Hellebuyck, Demko, Merzlikins, Vejmelka

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    F: Fantilli, Cooley, Bourgault, Perreault, Cowan, Ohgren, N. Foote, Goyette, Iskhakov, Denisenko, Tracey
    D: Simashev, Willander, Lambos
    G: Schmidt, Rodrigue, DiPietro, Gaudreau, McKay

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Kessel to NJ for the 6th?

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=766446

    He plans to get there by adding more firepower.

    "[Creating more offense] is going to be a goal," Shero said Monday after he was named to his new position. "We would like to augment our defense with a little more offense."

    I don't see shero rebuilding slowly. he's going to make some moves to get more offense while schneider is in his best years.

    i was doubtful before but the odds for the devils trading their pick has gone up by a decent amount. still unlikely they do it but i'm sure shero would consider a deal for kessel.

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