Hey Look Karlsson

[Axeman33]

It's not ignorant. You can't tell me that the best defensemen in the league (which I do believe the Norris was intended to reward) also happen to be the leagues top offensive ones because it would appear that the top offensive ones are the ones who are always in the running.

It's a very viable argument, and certainly not an ignorant one.

[2014olympicgold]

It's not ignorant. You can't tell me that the best defensemen in the league (which I do believe the Norris was intended to reward) also happen to be the leagues top offensive ones because it would appear that the top offensive ones are the ones who are always in the running.

Because offense is a part of the award…Best ALL around. Not just best defensive. I really don’t get how so many people get hung up on the defensive aspect.

[Big Ev]

It's not ignorant. You can't tell me that the best defensemen in the league (which I do believe the Norris was intended to reward) also happen to be the leagues top offensive ones because it would appear that the top offensive ones are the ones who are always in the running.

It's a very viable argument, and certainly not an ignorant one.

No, it's pretty ignorant man. You are saying the top offensive d-man always wins it and that's false. BUT to win this trophy you have to be great offensively. That's the point of the trophy - all around defenseman. We're not giving it to some shut down d-man like Willie Mitchell. The people who say guys like Keith and Karlsson only won because of offense didn't really pay attention to either player. Karlsson was the most dominant d-man that year by far.

The award is not designed to be given to the league's best "defenceman" in terms of pure defence, and fact is the game has changed where offense = defense nowadays anyway. You are great defensively when the other team doesn't have the puck. You have to be good in all zones to win the award.

[Axeman33]

Because offense is a part of the award…Best ALL around. Not just best defensive. I really don’t get how so many people get hung up on the defensive aspect.

On the other side, it shouldn't just be "best offensive" either.

To me it's almost criminal that someone like Ryan Suter still hasn't won this award yet.

[2014olympicgold]

#De-railed lol. Sorry Karlsson readers.

[Big Ev]

#De-railed lol. Sorry Karlsson readers.

it's not really a derailment. It applies to Karlsson. Anyway, it's funny to see that as usual people freak out when they don't get what they want in the short term. I really hope a lot of people in fantasy land don't have money in the market.

[2014olympicgold]

it's not really a derailment. It applies to Karlsson. Anyway, it's funny to see that as usual people freak out when they don't get what they want in the short term. I really hope a lot of people in fantasy land don't have money in the market.

Loving the fact I traded Kucherov+Eberle for Karlsson+Hartnell in late November now. Easily my favourite trade I’ve done ever.
Pt’s league with only forward/Defense position locks. Everyone undervalued D-men.

[Rodgort]

I originally thought someone snapped a photo of Karlsson and was all "hey look Karlsson". I am dissapointed.

Why doesn't Engelland have the Norris yet (Or Regher! Or Orpik! Or [insert "defensive" defensmen])? They have "character" and "toughness" and "clears the net" and "plays defense" and "fights" all things people think Karlsson doesn't have. That is it, Engelland for Norris!

[Rodgort]

image1s.jpg

Hey look Karlsson!

[Big Ev]

Hey look, Karlsson

[Vanek! at the Disco]

No, it's pretty ignorant man. You are saying the top offensive d-man always wins it and that's false. BUT to win this trophy you have to be great offensively. That's the point of the trophy - all around defenseman. We're not giving it to some shut down d-man like Willie Mitchell. The people who say guys like Keith and Karlsson only won because of offense didn't really pay attention to either player. Karlsson was the most dominant d-man that year by far.

The award is not designed to be given to the league's best "defenceman" in terms of pure defence, and fact is the game has changed where offense = defense nowadays anyway. You are great defensively when the other team doesn't have the puck. You have to be good in all zones to win the award.

I agree. If you honestly think the intent of the award is to give it to the league's best defensive D then you haven't been paying attention at all. Take a look back at the last 30 years in the NHL. I challenge you to show me one guy on this list who was a pure defense-first D who did not contribute heavily on the scoresheet:

1984-85:Paul Coffey
1985-86:Paul Coffey
1986-87:Ray Bourque
1987-88:Ray Bourque
1988-89:Chris Chelios
1989-90:Ray Bourque
1990-91:Ray Bourque
1991-92:Brian Leetch
1992-93:Chris Chelios
1993-94:Ray Bourque
1994-95:Paul Coffey
1995-96:Chris Chelios
1996-97:Brian Leetch
1997-98:Rob Blake
1998-99:Al MacInnis
1999-00:Chris Pronger
2000-01:Nicklas Lidstrom
2001-02:Nicklas Lidstrom
2002-03:Nicklas Lidstrom
2003-04:Scott Niedermayer
2004-05:No winner
2005-06:Nicklas Lidstrom
2006-07:Nicklas Lidstrom
2007-08:Nicklas Lidstrom
2008-09:Zdeno Chara
2009-10: Duncan Keith
2010-11:Nicklas Lidstrom
2011-12:Erik Karlsson
2012-13: P. K. Subban
2013-14: Duncan Keith

[Rodgort]

download.jpg

Hey look Karlsson

[Atomic Wedgy]

I agree. If you honestly think the intent of the award is to give it to the league's best defensive D then you haven't been paying attention at all. Take a look back at the last 30 years in the NHL. I challenge you to show me one guy on this list who was a pure defense-first D who did not contribute heavily on the scoresheet:

1984-85:Paul Coffey
1985-86:Paul Coffey
1986-87:Ray Bourque
1987-88:Ray Bourque
1988-89:Chris Chelios
1989-90:Ray Bourque
1990-91:Ray Bourque
1991-92:Brian Leetch
1992-93:Chris Chelios
1993-94:Ray Bourque
1994-95:Paul Coffey
1995-96:Chris Chelios
1996-97:Brian Leetch
1997-98:Rob Blake
1998-99:Al MacInnis
1999-00:Chris Pronger
2000-01:Nicklas Lidstrom
2001-02:Nicklas Lidstrom
2002-03:Nicklas Lidstrom
2003-04:Scott Niedermayer
2004-05:No winner
2005-06:Nicklas Lidstrom
2006-07:Nicklas Lidstrom
2007-08:Nicklas Lidstrom
2008-09:Zdeno Chara
2009-10: Duncan Keith
2010-11:Nicklas Lidstrom
2011-12:Erik Karlsson
2012-13: P. K. Subban
2013-14: Duncan Keith

The best pure defensive defenceman will never EVER win. Its just not sexy. Purely offensive players can win when they are ridiculously ahead of their next best peer mostly because that is a measurable statistic. You cannot measure for being awesome defensively as it gets lost in the efforts of the entire team. Points can be directly contributed to the player who scored them even though the entire team created the environment for points to be scored. Its the nature of the beast.

Plus/Minus is a team stat and should not be the deciding factor in an individual award, but it still is. The Norris trophy is still pretty cool even though the award criteria is often shrouded in smoke. They have to call it best overall defenceman, but it is really about entertainment as they are in that industry. When someone scores so many points as to dwarf the next highest total (a la Karlsson 2012), then he'll always get the award due to the high entertainment factor. It has to be rewarded as it brings in the fans. Best actual defenceman... how many fans does that bring to the game?

[Vanek! at the Disco]

The best pure defensive defenceman will never EVER win. Its just not sexy. Purely offensive players can win when they are ridiculously ahead of their next best peer mostly because that is a measurable statistic. You cannot measure for being awesome defensively as it gets lost in the efforts of the entire team. Points can be directly contributed to the player who scored them even though the entire team created the environment for points to be scored. Its the nature of the beast.

Plus/Minus is a team stat and should not be the deciding factor in an individual award, but it still is. The Norris trophy is still pretty cool even though the award criteria is often shrouded in smoke. They have to call it best overall defenceman, but it is really about entertainment as they are in that industry. When someone scores so many points as to dwarf the next highest total (a la Karlsson 2012), then he'll always get the award due to the high entertainment factor. It has to be rewarded as it brings in the fans. Best actual defenceman... how many fans does that bring to the game?

I disagree. Look down that list again, how many of those guys were bad defensively? None.
Sure, you've got Coffey in there who was probably the most pure offensive-D of the bunch but he was by no means a bad defenceman, he just had more important things to do on the ice, like scoring 120 pts. But most of the guys are on that list because they excelled on both sides of the puck.

[Axeman33]

I disagree. Look down that list again, how many of those guys were bad defensively? None.
Sure, you've got Coffey in there who was probably the most pure offensive-D of the bunch but he was by no means a bad defenceman, he just had more important things to do on the ice, like scoring 120 pts. But most of the guys are on that list because they excelled on both sides of the puck.

Erik Karlsson won his Norris because he put up 78 points in 2011/12. It had little to do with him being the best defenseman on both sides of the puck.

Don't get me wrong, it was an amazing season for him as far as his offense goes, but to say he was the best "overall" defenseman that year is highly debatable.