The Art of Trading

[87Flyer]

Just finished reading the newest post on another thread and it got the blood boiling. big_dl hit the nail on the head, any offer can and should be countered.

Why is it so hard for the majority of GMs to actually handle a proper negotiation for a trade. When thinking about this problem i figured i\'d start a list of things that don\'t help making a trade work, feel free to add anything that i probably missed.

- if you don\'t want to deal just say so at the start, don\'t let the other GM waste his time coming up with a deal then say nothing.

- one word answers don\'t help the dealing process

- don\'t leave a GM hanging for an extended period of time(more than a couple days). it\'s easier to say no thank you i\'ll pass.

- if a GM put\'s an offer on the table it\'s a good bet he\'s trying to feel out the situation. he can\'t read your mind and doesn\'t know what you are or aren\'t willing to deal, trying countering the offer.

- express what you think the value of the players he is asking for, if you think the guy he wants is a top talent say so, don\'t just reply no that won\'t work. if you let the other person know then maybe he can find something else that might work or at the least he\'ll have an idea of how you value the player.

- different positions of players have different value. #1 starters are not worth 3 guys that play on your 3rd line. they are worth a top end player, especially if they are in the tops of the league.

- just because a prospect has a ton of hype doesn\'t mean that he\'s worth sidney crosby. anything can happen from the time he is drafted to the time he plays his first game.

- dealing is give and take. you can\'t always get exactly what you want, people have different values on their players and sometimes you have to give up something to. remember both sides are trying to improve not just you.

- communication, think i may have already said it but it shud be said again, try talking about the proposed deal. trading is about bargaining, haggling, bartering and going back and forth with new ideas, in order for a deal to get done BOTH sides have to work on it.

sorry if i carried on a bit to much i just can\'t understand why so many people have no ability to talk trade. it\'s not so hard, yet a few of the different leagues i\'ve been in have had the same problem, guys just don\'t say anything. it\'s like they sit there and wait for you to keep offering until they get the deal they want, that\'s not how it\'s supposed to go. can you imagine a GM from one city calling another one and having a one sided conversation, no one would ever get moved and he probably wouldn\'t be calling back. this is fantasy hockey, we\'re not making million dollar decisions, we\'re playing a fantasy sport.

[big_dl]

Well said. I agree with almost everything you said. A player\'s only worth as much as you can get for him in a trade, regardless of how good you think he is or will be. Now here\'s the kicker and this may be shocking to some, normally the way to find out how another owner values a player of his or yours is to inquire, whether via trade offer or simply asking in an e-mail. That\'s why you respond to every offer in a fashion that actually tells the owner something. No decent fantasy hockey player is going to make offers that he thinks are going to hurt his team. If you only respond to offers that benefit you you\'re going to have a tough time making any deals at all, unless of course you\'re playing with masochists who only make deals in which they get bent over a table. It\'s the type of attitude that was displayed by some in the previous thread that really pisses me off, as if it\'s not obvious. The other thing that\'s great is when you get a trade response that tells you to do unmentionable things to family members, also very informative. Let\'s all be the adults that I\'m sure most of us are and handle trade negotiations with some sort of maturity, and recognize trade offers, especially first ones, for what they are, exploratory measures.

[BrianSTC]

I find most GMs overvalue their own players AND undervalue your players.
I find it rare when I get a first offer that is close...
I don\'t get insulted by any offer, I just laugh to myself and turn them down...

I usually just say \"no thanks\" to offers that I find \"insulting\" because if we are starting too far apart, it will be extremely unlikely that we will close the gap...

If I get a low ball offer for one of my players, lets say far apart....but he is not trying to rape me, I will pick out players on his roster that I believe are on par with the player he wants...

If I get a close offer, I will ask for him to add something to equalize it out...

I also find that I can trade easier with certain GMs in my league while others either don\'t know how to trade or offer three garbage cans for my superstar.

[smoothfun]

it\'s like buying a car , never let the dealer know how bad you want a paticular car , look over the yaris with keen interest then inquire about the corrola ; if things go well you might end up with the camry!basically approach the other owner about a decent player he\'s got then try to do a two player deal and insert the player you realy would like to grab and be willing to give up similar talent to make the deal work.if there is a stellar player you want , then do\'nt fart around , make your offer and make it good!

[lanky522]

All good suggestions and thoughts in terms of trade etiquette...

The two single things that burn my britches during trade talks are:

1) extreme low ball initial trade offers.
2) not responding to the trade in a timely manner or at all.

I\'m the type of person who loves to trade. If all things are equal, I\'ll make the trade rather than keeping my own guy(s).

But when it comes to these two things, I get absolutely infuriated when I\'m making or receiving trade offers. If and when these things happen, I actually swear off making offers to the manager who did one of the above for an extended period of time.

People that do the above just aren\'t worth the hassel.

[Dobber]

87Flyer - this thread should be a \"must read\" for keeper league owners and I sent the link out to my pool.

Good one!

[hockeylifer]

My apologies to Dobber and all of you for making \'your blood boil\'.

I responded in another thread that an offer wasn\'t close and it would be a short conversation.

Let me explain, if I can. Hopefully what I am going to say will make some sense.

Firstly, I made my comments in consideration of the pool that I am in and not the offer that was in the thread. My pool has been in existance for more than 10 years. All of the guys are very knowledgeable about the game.
We have dealt with one another for years.

I agree with everything that you guys/gals have said. If you aren\'t interested in making a deal then just say so. My experience has been that, for the most part, the initial offer will dictate the likelihood of getting anything done. I find \'low balling\' very annoying. Probably why I tend to overpay if there is a player(s) that I really want.

In the given trade offer I did not consider that it was close to being fair value. I am considering, in hindsight, \'that my tone of voice\' was not appropriate, i.e. It would be a short discussion. (I did not intend to offend). I would respond to any offer and the response would be quick, i.e. I am not interested or what about this? At the same time if there is nothing can be accomplished I walk away quick.

That is all I was TRYING to say. Sorry for having offended anyone. I obviously didn\'t say it well at all.

It is a new day.

Post edited by: hockeylifer, at: 2007/07/25 10:35

[87Flyer]

hockeylifer

there was no offence taken here on my part. it wasn\'t your actual thread that got me going it was just the statement that big_dl made about having a counter offer. i immediately thought about all the people that i have tried to trade with and the way they responded and acted and i figured i\'d vent a bit in the hope that anyone who doesn\'t seem to do well with trading might get an idea on how to improve.

a friend of mine and myself spent a whole season last year trying to show the other GMs in our pool how to work out trades. we continously sent offers out and forced the other GMs to accept our counters and ask for a counter back. at the start of the year they fit onto that list to a T. By the end of the year things were a lot better. we were talking and working on doing a deal. it was so much more fun.

i apologize hockeylifer if i made you think that i was referring to you as an individual with the post, it was more meant as a generalization for anyone who wishes to do a trade and seems to have a hard time getting one done.

Thanks for the input guys, glad to see i\'m not the only one who goes thru this stuff lol.

[doulos]

I don\'t want to repeat too much of what is being said here but I did want to add something.

One of the things that I really dislike when involved in trade negotiations is when someone tries to pressure me with some sort of timeline. One guy in particular in a league I am in does this all the time and it\'s come to the point where I just don\'t want to even trade with him any more. Often we will start talking about a couple players and then suddenly I\'ll hear \"So it sounds like a deal then? I\'ll send it in.\" I\'ll want to slow it down because that\'s just my personality and this individual gets upset and says things like \"Look if you don\'t want to trade just tell me now, I got to go.\" or similar things.

Trading is fun for me, but sometimes I like to have time to sit and think on something, often the next day I\'ll accept a deal anyways but there have been times when I\'ve really realised I\'m making a mistake and don\'t want to do the deal.

Also, just out of curiousity how do you guys deal with someone who is a real bonehead and is completely destroying their team with trades? Do you just let it go or deal with it in some way. This particular question might open up a whole can of worms on league structure but I am just curious as the other league I am in has an individual that just makes bad trades all the time to about 2 or 3 different guys. Not quite bad enough that people can really veto them or anything (another discussion topic I know) but over the course of the last year his team is now dead last by quite a bit and the few teams he trades with continually are now quite stocked up and looking to lead the league for some time now. Maybe this is just a case of us other folks being too dumb to trade with this guy as well, I don\'t know....hah.

[BrianSTC]

doulos wrote:

Also, just out of curiousity how do you guys deal with someone who is a real bonehead and is completely destroying their team with trades? Do you just let it go or deal with it in some way. This particular question might open up a whole can of worms on league structure but I am just curious as the other league I am in has an individual that just makes bad trades all the time to about 2 or 3 different guys. Not quite bad enough that people can really veto them or anything (another discussion topic I know) but over the course of the last year his team is now dead last by quite a bit and the few teams he trades with continually are now quite stocked up and looking to lead the league for some time now. Maybe this is just a case of us other folks being too dumb to trade with this guy as well, I don\'t know....hah.

Is he trading his good players to the same teams all the time? Or is he just making dumb trades to everyone?

[big_dl]

If it\'s not dumping or collusion that\'s provable then you\'re just not taking advantage of a stupid guy, in other words yes it\'s your fault for not being quick enough on the draw. It should be your mission to rip him a new one at every turn.

[Screaming Jawa]

I recently had a situation with a guy, whom I\'ve had no trouble at all in the past with, where he saw I was wanting to trade a particular player. He said he was interested in acquiring the player. I said I\'d take a particular player off his team. His response was he wasn\'t interested in doing that. (I never even said it was a 1-for-1 trade, I just showed him where my interest was.)

... and that was the last I heard. I replied to him saying that HE was the one that approached me, so the ball is now in his court.

Still nothing.

I have no issue with the guy, we\'ve been very happy trading with each other in the past, but this wasn\'t the first time that I had to remind somebody that they\'re the ones that initiated the trade talks, it\'s really up to them to carry it through.

[Zorro]

I hear ya boys, 87Flyer you bring up some really great points. I can\'t stand when you take time out of your day to think about deals and you finally put one together that you really like and then you send it off to the other GM and get a reply a few days later that says nothing more then \"NO\". I just can\'t stand that crap. If you aren\'t willing to make deals and aren\'t willing to participate in a \"Fantasy League\" then get out. It\'s as easy as that.

Another thing I can\'t stand is when you show interest in a guy and you really want him but you ease into talks with this other GM for his player and then he says something to the effect \"I don\'t think I want to trade this player right now\", and then not even a week later he ends up trading the same guy you wanted to another GM in the league for something less then what you were going to give him. Oh god that gets me going.

I know everyone thinks they are repeating everyone else\'s rants but thats ok, we are all devoted to our teams, and we all want them to win. And thats not a bad thing. Thats why we are all here. We all have the love for the game and if its through Fantasy Keeper Leagues, then so be it.

Good luck to you all in all your leagues. And here\'s to many more trades and great draft selections..
Zorro..

[WildHendy]

I often limit my trading partners to the people I see logged on on a regular basis....this kinda sucks cause it excludes certain players but at least i know i will get a response..............also,how come the lucky s.o.b.\'s who get Crosby are often either ******s or quitters?????

[big_dl]

Wild, I think thats a mistake, no matter how annoying an individual manager is thats no reason to stop making offers to him/her. Recently I\'ve taken to negotiating against myself, which isnt smart, but when it takes weeks to get a response it happens (doesnt help that I have a lot of time on my hands this summer). What I\'m trying to say is that by only dealing with people you find it easy to deal you cut off a section of the pool that is available to you, and this is antithetical to building a good team. Even if the bastard only responds once out of every 20 times that one time could be the deal that makes your team. I cant stand teams that a long time to respond but that doesnt stop me from making offers. I think the key is to remember that cutting another manager off only hurts your ability to improve your team. At a certain point you need to balance being annoyed with the bugger with helping your team, as infrequent as it may be.