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Thread: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

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    Default Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Despite much criticism, the Flyers are the team they are today because of Paul Holmgren.

    http://thehockeywriters.com/why-the-...paul-holmgren/

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    I'd give Holmgren a B for his work.
    It can't/shant be forgotten that he HAD TO move M.Richards/Carter because they were lockerroom plagues that didn't fit with the work ethic that the Flyers wanted.
    They also brought in the veteran Pronger (a good move, injury could not be forecast) and that created a tough difference with the young captaincy of Richards.

    The two trades they pulled off to move out Richards & Carter were both very, very good trades, IMO.
    But the Bryzgalov signing was a disaster... as was letting Bobrovsky go.

    Decent overall work.
    As a Flyers fan, I'll give him a light clap for his work... pretty happy with the current team.
    They really aren't THAT far away from PIT & NYR, but they do need some help on defense.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Was Holmgren responsible for the JVR for Schenn swap, or was that before his time. Philly got smoked on that deal.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post

    The two trades they pulled off to move out Richards & Carter were both very, very good trades, IMO.
    It's hilarious to me how many Flyers fans have talked themselves into this assessment.

    The facts speak for themselves, the Flyers went to the cup finals with Carter and Richards, what have they done since? Sweet **** all.
    The Kings on the other hand have a cup, a conference finals berth and now are one game away from a return to the conf finals. This whole notion that these guys were somehow a 'cancer' in the locker-room is ludicrous, you don't have success like the Kings have had with cancers on your team.

    Now that said, I agree with you that that trade is looking better and better for them as time goes on but calling them 'very very good trades' at this point is way overboard IMO.
    Lets just say that they made a fair deal, drafted well with the pick they got and that long term they'll be the better team for it. But that doesn't mean it was a smart deal at the time. The window for winning a cup is fleeting, when you've got the pieces in place to make a serious run for it you've gotta hit it, they had that and they pissed it away IMO. I agree that the rebuild (if you wanna call it that) is looking pretty good now, but who's to say they didn't forfeit a really good chance for a cup?

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Trading Carter and Richards rather than repairing the locker room was the worst move the Flyers could make. Pronger vs Carter/Richards - and now they have none of them............

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    Was Holmgren responsible for the JVR for Schenn swap, or was that before his time. Philly got smoked on that deal.
    He was, and I'll agree, the Leafs came out on top. But JVR was expendable at the time, and the Flyers were in need even more than now for blue line help. Plus, Schenn has played well the last 2 seasons near the end of the season. While he's far from the answer, he's (Schenn) far from the worse. With that being said, would it keep me awake at night if Hextall were to trade him to open up cap space? Absolutely not.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    It's hilarious to me how many Flyers fans have talked themselves into this assessment.

    The facts speak for themselves, the Flyers went to the cup finals with Carter and Richards, what have they done since? Sweet **** all.
    The Kings on the other hand have a cup, a conference finals berth and now are one game away from a return to the conf finals. This whole notion that these guys were somehow a 'cancer' in the locker-room is ludicrous, you don't have success like the Kings have had with cancers on your team.

    Now that said, I agree with you that that trade is looking better and better for them as time goes on but calling them 'very very good trades' at this point is way overboard IMO.
    Lets just say that they made a fair deal, drafted well with the pick they got and that long term they'll be the better team for it. But that doesn't mean it was a smart deal at the time. The window for winning a cup is fleeting, when you've got the pieces in place to make a serious run for it you've gotta hit it, they had that and they pissed it away IMO. I agree that the rebuild (if you wanna call it that) is looking pretty good now, but who's to say they didn't forfeit a really good chance for a cup?
    Under Laviolette, Richards and Carter were like oil & water with Lavy's rules. And yes, they helped the Kings win a Cup, but I wouldn't say they were the reason they won it. Even Lappy assessed the move, saying that it works out for both sides. In LA, they don't have to be "the guy," like they (mostly Richards) had to be in Philly. If we're being honest, the Kings have an all around better team than the Flyers. They have an elite defenseman in Doughty to go along with the best goalie in the world, Jonathan Quick.

    I think we can call the trades "very very good." You look at the cap space trading those two opened up, along with what they got (as you mentioned). Don't be mistaken, however. Had Claude Giroux not shown he was ready to take that next step, Richards (if not Carter as well) would still be in Philadelphia. The trades were worth it in Simmonds and Couturier alone. When you add Brayden Schenn and the draft picks, it seals it for me.

    I think by making those trades, Holmgren avoided a complete rebuilding period once that team's window closed. The Flyers definitely took a few short steps back, but they did so while getting younger. They could've done some SERIOUS damage had Bryzgalov worked out, or wasn't signed in the first place.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by MolsonX View Post
    Trading Carter and Richards rather than repairing the locker room was the worst move the Flyers could make. Pronger vs Carter/Richards - and now they have none of them............
    You can't fault Holmgren for trading for Pronger. When you have the chance at an elite defenseman like that, you pull that trigger. That's why I loved the offer sheet to Shea Weber. The 7-year contract to Pronger was a reach, I'll give you that. But they gave up an irrelevant defenseman in Luca Sbisa and 2 1st round picks. Well worth it for Chris Pronger if you ask me. So while you say they have none of them, it's a bit misleading. They don't have Pronger because of bad luck, and what they have in Richards' & Carter's place is a vital part of the team in Simmonds and Couturier. I think trading van Riemsdyk hurt them more than trading either Richards or Carter.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by ASquared View Post
    He was, and I'll agree, the Leafs came out on top. But JVR was expendable at the time, and the Flyers were in need even more than now for blue line help. Plus, Schenn has played well the last 2 seasons near the end of the season. While he's far from the answer, he's (Schenn) far from the worse. With that being said, would it keep me awake at night if Hextall were to trade him to open up cap space? Absolutely not.
    And the loss of that bum...the Goalie they call Bob?? (Giggle)

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by havanablast21 View Post
    And the loss of that bum...the Goalie they call Bob?? (Giggle)
    Yeah, you win some and ya lose some. If Mason can maintain the level of play he showed in the playoffs, that punch line will be nullified. Besides, didn't they get Voracek out of that deal?

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by ASquared View Post
    Yeah, you win some and ya lose some. If Mason can maintain the level of play he showed in the playoffs, that punch line will be nullified. Besides, didn't they get Voracek out of that deal?
    Voraek was part of the Carter trade.
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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by ASquared View Post
    Under Laviolette, Richards and Carter were like oil & water with Lavy's rules. And yes, they helped the Kings win a Cup, but I wouldn't say they were the reason they won it. Even Lappy assessed the move, saying that it works out for both sides. In LA, they don't have to be "the guy," like they (mostly Richards) had to be in Philly. If we're being honest, the Kings have an all around better team than the Flyers. They have an elite defenseman in Doughty to go along with the best goalie in the world, Jonathan Quick.

    I think we can call the trades "very very good." You look at the cap space trading those two opened up, along with what they got (as you mentioned). Don't be mistaken, however. Had Claude Giroux not shown he was ready to take that next step, Richards (if not Carter as well) would still be in Philadelphia. The trades were worth it in Simmonds and Couturier alone. When you add Brayden Schenn and the draft picks, it seals it for me.

    I think by making those trades, Holmgren avoided a complete rebuilding period once that team's window closed. The Flyers definitely took a few short steps back, but they did so while getting younger. They could've done some SERIOUS damage had Bryzgalov worked out, or wasn't signed in the first place.
    If Giroux was ready to be "the guy", then that means Richards wouldn't have to be anymore - so that logic is somewhat flawed.

    The Kings would not have won the Cup without Richards and Carter and they wouldn't have gone on runs to the conference final last year and potentially this year as well.

    The rationale for the trades (locker room issues) makes sense, but the Flyers set themselves back with these trades. They had just gone to the Cup Final and were two wins away from winning the whole thing. The moves were right for the team but they made the team worse and no longer a contender.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    Quote Originally Posted by MolsonX View Post
    If Giroux was ready to be "the guy", then that means Richards wouldn't have to be anymore - so that logic is somewhat flawed.

    The Kings would not have won the Cup without Richards and Carter and they wouldn't have gone on runs to the conference final last year and potentially this year as well.

    The rationale for the trades (locker room issues) makes sense, but the Flyers set themselves back with these trades. They had just gone to the Cup Final and were two wins away from winning the whole thing. The moves were right for the team but they made the team worse and no longer a contender.
    I don't see any flaw with the statement about Giroux. No player has scored more points than he did in the past 4 seasons. Furthermore, he's only been eliminated twice from the playoffs, with his 1st coming after he sent Crosby packing.

    I don't think either one of us can say one way or another if the Kings would've won the Cup with or without Richards and Carter. The same applies for their appearance in this year's Conference Finals. After all, Anze Kopitar is 2nd overall in points, and Marian Gaborik is far ahead of both in production.

    Saying the Flyers were 2 wins away from winning it all is both true, yet misleading. They trailed the entire series, which included an 0-2 series hole. The fact of the matter is that the Blackhawks were the better team, and the Flyers had somewhat of an easier path to the Finals. Sure, they made history by overcoming the 0-3 hole against Boston, but something like that is both a great effort, as well as a choke job by the losing team.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    See this is your fundamental problem...you present a badly flawed argument, others provide reasons why it is flawed and you ignore them all and present more flawed arguments...wtf?

    Giroux is 'the guy' in Philly and has been for years, it was obvious from very early on that this was how it was going to play out, Richards+Carter were just keeping the spot warm for him. So if Roo is 'the guy' then by your logic that's an ideal scenario for Carter+Richards no? As MolsonX points out you kinda made your own argument, it just happened to be against yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ASquared View Post
    I don't think either one of us can say one way or another if the Kings would've won the Cup with or without Richards and Carter. The same applies for their appearance in this year's Conference Finals. After all, Anze Kopitar is 2nd overall in points, and Marian Gaborik is far ahead of both in production.
    So you're trying to argue that adding one of the better snipers in the league as well a great leader and excellent 2-way player who excels in big games (and both gold medalists for Canada also) had no effect on the improvement in the Kings fortunes? lmao, that's ridiculous.

    Prior to Richards+Carter's arrival the Kings had two 1st round eliminations and before that had missed the playoffs six years in a row. Now add Carter+Richards and they win the cup. Hmmm, lets compare the pre and post rosters for a minute.

    OK so they lost Schenn and Simmonds in the one deal and Jack Johnson in the other...also notable was Ponikarovsky leaving.
    They add: Colin Fraser, Ethan Moreau, Jordan Nolan, Simon Gagne, Trent Hunter, Jeff Carter and Mike Richards

    Aha! How could I be so blind, clearly it was Ethan Moreau and Simon Gagne that put them over the top!

    Quote Originally Posted by ASquared View Post
    Saying the Flyers were 2 wins away from winning it all is both true, yet misleading. They trailed the entire series, which included an 0-2 series hole. The fact of the matter is that the Blackhawks were the better team, and the Flyers had somewhat of an easier path to the Finals. Sure, they made history by overcoming the 0-3 hole against Boston, but something like that is both a great effort, as well as a choke job by the losing team.
    No, what is horribly misleading is trying to minimize the importance of getting to the finals, it is both exceedingly rare and difficult to get that far and once you're there it doesn't matter one iota how you got there, its all any NHL player could ever ask for, it's a shot at the cup, you make your own history at that point. So no, sorry, that's a bullshit argument if there ever was one. The last time the Flyers made it to the cup finals? 1997 with Lindros/Leclair/Hawerchuk/Brindamour/Desjardins/Coffey/Hextall and they lost! The window of opportunity to win a cup is narrow and fleeting for most teams (2-4 years usually), it is incredibly difficult in the modern NHL to maintain a dynasty so you have to strike when the iron is hot or you risk not getting the chance again for a long time.

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    Default Re: Why the Flyers are Better Off Because of Paul Holmgren

    so essentially (in no particular order):

    he trades jvr for schenn
    trades richards and carter so he can "fix" locker room issues and sign a goalie
    signs bryzgalov
    bryzgalov sucks ass in philly
    he buys out bryzgalov
    he trades boborovsky for almost nothing
    bobrovsky wins the vezina


    i'm sorry...how is holmgren a good gm again? he was good back in the day, but he has really made some terrible moves lately. if he was good he wouldn't be forced to leave the role.

    i don't blame him for the bobrovsky trade, i dont think many of us saw that vezina coming. but bryz was clearly a product of the coyotes system. these were all foolish moves that set the flyers back.

    oh how could i forget...jvr for schenn, that was holmgren too right?

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