Is Jonathan Toews The Best Player In The World?

[rataylor22]

This thread has certainly gone off the rails.

First off, Crosby is clearly the best player in the world right now. It's not close. Metrics of better offensively vs. better defensively vs. leadership qualities etc. can be used to argue why Stamkos is better or Toews is better or Bergeron is better or Malkin is better or Ovechkin is better. All legitimate arguments for spots 2 through whatever, adding whatever names you please. But Crosby is significantly more dominant than all of them and it isn''t much of an argument. And to be clear, the Chicago teams that have won cups may not have been significantly better than the Pittsburgh team that won the cup, but they have been significantly better than any Pittsburgh team has been since then, and using the argument "no because Malkin" just isn't accurate. Chicago doesn't even get out of the LA series last year without Patrick Kane, and they don't get out of the Detroit series without Brent Seabrook and Duncan Keith. Sometimes a team's bets players need to be carried and Toews got a ton of support last year, much more than Crosby has gotten since 09. Argue with me as you please, I don't really care, I won't be responding to any THW posters coming on here to gang up and group attack.

[ASquared]

With all due respect, I don't see what this has to do with anything. If you put yourself out there on the internet, you are asking for praise as well as criticism.

Perfect example, I put up music videos on youtube of myself singing/playing the guitar. I am not a pro so I get criticism as well as praise. I have never once said to a critic "where's your music video?" as a retort to his criticism. I put myself out there to be viewed at my own risk. I realize not everyone will like what they hear so I take the good with the bad.

Similar to your writing, you put yourself out there. I am sure not everyone will agree with your writing/comments but you have to be prepared for some sort of cynicism. Now I agree that no one needs to be rude or derogatory with comments; thats taking it too far. Maybe I am wrong but I haven't seen any of that towards your writing on here yet.

I completely see what you're saying and agree. I actually knew that before even replying with that. I just couldn't couldn't help asking since he sits back and pops off with no valid argument of his own. I'm sorry, condescending sarcasm doesn't win. I mean, seriously. This is the guy who's saying the article is poorly written, yaddi yaddi yadda, and insists Sidney Crosby is an outstanding defensive forward who masters the faceoff circle. LOL, but you're right. It's out there for the good and bad. I'm just adjusting to armchair experts.

[rataylor22]

Which brings me to my second point, mainly talking to Dobber here. I'm fine with you inviting THW to the forums. I don't need you to block their posts to me, its easy enough to ignore any thread I don't want to read. The issue I have with this is reading through this thread, you see 4 or 5 of the writers coming inhere to gang up and take down other forum members opinions, basically running with "Whoever yells the loudest wins the argument". I totally understand collaborating to drive site traffic, that's how you survive, but maybe there needs to be some moderation here. The only running theme I got out of this thread (because I didn't care about the argument that started the thread, I think it's silly) is a group of THW writers coming here to gang up and be the loudest yeller.

[ASquared]

This thread has certainly gone off the rails.

First off, Crosby is clearly the best player in the world right now. It's not close. Metrics of better offensively vs. better defensively vs. leadership qualities etc. can be used to argue why Stamkos is better or Toews is better or Bergeron is better or Malkin is better or Ovechkin is better. All legitimate arguments for spots 2 through whatever, adding whatever names you please. But Crosby is significantly more dominant than all of them and it isn''t much of an argument. And to be clear, the Chicago teams that have won cups may not have been significantly better than the Pittsburgh team that won the cup, but they have been significantly better than any Pittsburgh team has been since then, and using the argument "no because Malkin" just isn't accurate. Chicago doesn't even get out of the LA series last year without Patrick Kane, and they don't get out of the Detroit series without Brent Seabrook and Duncan Keith. Sometimes a team's bets players need to be carried and Toews got a ton of support last year, much more than Crosby has gotten since 09. Argue with me as you please, I don't really care, I won't be responding to any THW posters coming on here to gang up and group attack.

Not looking to argue per se. This is a discussion - don't let a handful of fans ruin that.

One thing keeps popping up in my mind that still hasn't been mentioned yet in regard to the two teams. Has anyone forgotten how much more dominate the Western Conference is than the Eastern Conference? Look at this year alone. Pittsburgh plays in the most embarrassing division in hockey, and the road to the Stanley Cup is much harder through the West than it is the East.

Oh, and Malkin isn't the only guy Crosby has around him. Kunitz? Neal? Yeah, those guys can play a little too. Heck, Crosby even had Staal in the past. You guys can take Crosby and get your name in the paper. I'll take Toews and win Championships.

[4T2]

Not looking to argue per se. This is a discussion - don't let a handful of fans ruin that.

One thing keeps popping up in my mind that still hasn't been mentioned yet in regard to the two teams. Has anyone forgotten how much more dominate the Western Conference is than the Eastern Conference? Look at this year alone. Pittsburgh plays in the most embarrassing division in hockey, and the road to the Stanley Cup is much harder through the West than it is the East.

Oh, and Malkin isn't the only guy Crosby has around him. Kunitz? Neal? Yeah, those guys can play a little too. Heck, Crosby even had Staal in the past. You guys can take Crosby and get your name in the paper. I'll take Toews and win Championships.

If this transfers over to fantasy hockey, I've got a team available in a big money league for you

[rataylor22]

I completely see what you're saying and agree. I actually knew that before even replying with that. I just couldn't couldn't help asking since he sits back and pops off with no valid argument of his own. I'm sorry, condescending sarcasm doesn't win. I mean, seriously. This is the guy who's saying the article is poorly written, yaddi yaddi yadda, and insists Sidney Crosby is an outstanding defensive forward who masters the faceoff circle. LOL, but you're right. It's out there for the good and bad. I'm just adjusting to armchair experts.

Perfect example of what I'm saying Dobber. Guy is calling out McGoo for being condescending, sarcastic, and providing no legitimate argument by being condescending, sarcastic, and providing no legitimate argument. It's no secret that me and McGoo aren't the best of friends here on the forum, and he definitely sometimes can be a dick, but a response like this lacks professionalism expected from a writer as opposed to a forum poster. He is a representative of his site, whereas McGoo is a representative of himself, and a response like this drives me away from THW not towards it

You always strive to the bigger person in any argument on your site, and I think it is highly commendable and professional of you as I'm sure it is not always easy. We definitely make it tough on you sometimes. I just don't see the guys from THW trying to do the same. After all, aren't we all armchair experts? What seperates you from us is the amount of time, dedication and experience you have that we rely upon.

[ASquared]

If this transfers over to fantasy hockey, I've got a team available in a big money league for you

Hahaha, read the article and you'll know that certainly doesn't pertain to fantasy hockey. Oh, but I'm biased. Lol, I forgot.

p.s. that last comment wasn't for you.

[ASquared]

Perfect example of what I'm saying Dobber. Guy is calling out McGoo for being condescending, sarcastic, and providing no legitimate argument by being condescending, sarcastic, and providing no legitimate argument. It's no secret that me and McGoo aren't the best of friends here on the forum, and he definitely sometimes can be a dick, but a response like this lacks professionalism expected from a writer as opposed to a forum poster. He is a representative of his site, whereas McGoo is a representative of himself, and a response like this drives me away from THW not towards it

You always strive to the bigger person in any argument on your site, and I think it is highly commendable and professional of you as I'm sure it is not always easy. We definitely make it tough on you sometimes. I just don't see the guys from THW trying to do the same. After all, aren't we all armchair experts? What seperates you from us is the amount of time, dedication and experience you have that we rely upon.

Are you serious right now?

[ASquared]

Oh I see! So the question mark at the end makes up for the fact that the article is poorly conceived, poorly written and composed solely by a raging Hawks homer? Cool, good to know!

What's your next piece of entitled? "Nikolai khabibulin, is he the greatest to ever put on pads"?

Hey, if you feel it's poorly conceived, written and composed, you're entitled to that opinion. But one thing I certainly am not is a "raging Hawks homer." I'm a Flyers fan if you must know. Good day.

[4T2]

Hahaha, read the article and you'll know that certainly doesn't pertain to fantasy hockey. Oh, but I'm biased. Lol, I forgot.

p.s. that last comment wasn't for you.

You are biased. Not be an ass about it, but it's the truth. You are the Blackhawks writer for THW so you obviously watch a lot more Chicago hockey than any other game. Even if you aren't a fan of the team (although you strike me as one) you can't help but be biased towards the players you watch every game.

For the record, as a Bruins fan, I'm probably going to take Bergeron over Toews if I'm starting a team. Just because I've seen so much of his drive and what he brings to the table. Does this make Bergeron a legitimately better player than Toews? No, of course not. But I'm sure you could find plenty of people who feel the same way as I do on the matter. Familiarity breeds bias, plain and simple.

[rataylor22]

Not looking to argue per se. This is a discussion - don't let a handful of fans ruin that.

One thing keeps popping up in my mind that still hasn't been mentioned yet in regard to the two teams. Has anyone forgotten how much more dominate the Western Conference is than the Eastern Conference? Look at this year alone. Pittsburgh plays in the most embarrassing division in hockey, and the road to the Stanley Cup is much harder through the West than it is the East.

Oh, and Malkin isn't the only guy Crosby has around him. Kunitz? Neal? Yeah, those guys can play a little too. Heck, Crosby even had Staal in the past. You guys can take Crosby and get your name in the paper. I'll take Toews and win Championships.

Now I'm just going back on my word, which bothers me. But really? That's your point? I said the cup winning Pens team was comparable. Since that team, Pittsburgh has not had Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all together. Last year it was Sutter. If you just want to compare last years teams:

Crosby > Toews
Malkin > Kane
Neal < Hossa
Kunitz < Sharp
Iginla <= Saad
Sutter < Bolland
Dupuis ~= Bickell/Shaw
Letang < Keith
Martin < Seabrook
Niskanen < Hjalmarsson
Depres/Murray < Leddy
Fluery/Vokoun < Crawford

There really isn't any comparison. After the top two players, Chicago's top 9 far exceeds Pittsburgh's top 9, and Chicago's top 4 defense is laughably better than Pittsburgh's. Like it isn't even a close comparison. To say the drop off in talent isn't much is hilarious, and either means you don't realize how good Saad/Hossa/Sharp/Shaw/Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Leddy are, or you seriously overrate Neal/Kunitz/Dupuis/Iginal/Jokinen/Letang/Martin/Niskanen/Depres/Murray. Especially like that defence. Chicago's second pairing of Hjalmarrson/Leddy is closer to Letang/Martin than Letang/Martin are to Keith/Seabrook

[4T2]

Hey, if you feel it's poorly conceived, written and composed, you're entitled to that opinion. But one thing I certainly am not is a "raging Hawks homer." I'm a Flyers fan if you must know. Good day.

In relation to the post I just posted and the fact that you have now removed this info from your signature, here is a link to your profile on THW which shows you as the Blackhawks writer. Not saying you are a "raging Hawks homer", just illustrating my point from previous post.

[ASquared]

You are biased. Not be an ass about it, but it's the truth. You are the Blackhawks writer for THW so you obviously watch a lot more Chicago hockey than any other game. Even if you aren't a fan of the team (although you strike me as one) you can't help but be biased towards the players you watch every game.

For the record, as a Bruins fan, I'm probably going to take Bergeron over Toews if I'm starting a team. Just because I've seen so much of his drive and what he brings to the table. Does this make Bergeron a legitimately better player than Toews? No, of course not. But I'm sure you could find plenty of people who feel the same way as I do on the matter. Familiarity breeds bias, plain and simple.

Although I disagree with the conclusion that I'm biased, I will agree with you that I pay more attention to the Blackhawks overall. Also, I'll agree with you that Bergeron is a top tier player in the league, and certainly won't berate you for that opinion. I'd even go out on the limb as much to say that Bergeron is thee most underrated player in the league.

[ASquared]

Now I'm just going back on my word, which bothers me. But really? That's your point? I said the cup winning Pens team was comparable. Since that team, Pittsburgh has not had Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all together. Last year it was Sutter. If you just want to compare last years teams:

Crosby > Toews
Malkin > Kane
Neal < Hossa
Kunitz < Sharp
Iginla <= Saad
Sutter < Bolland
Dupuis ~= Bickell/Shaw
Letang < Keith
Martin < Seabrook
Niskanen < Hjalmarsson
Depres/Murray < Leddy
Fluery/Vokoun < Crawford

There really isn't any comparison. After the top two players, Chicago's top 9 far exceeds Pittsburgh's top 9, and Chicago's top 4 defense is laughably better than Pittsburgh's. Like it isn't even a close comparison. To say the drop off in talent isn't much is hilarious, and either means you don't realize how good Saad/Hossa/Sharp/Shaw/Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Leddy are, or you seriously overrate Neal/Kunitz/Dupuis/Iginal/Jokinen/Letang/Martin/Niskanen/Depres/Murray. Especially like that defence. Chicago's second pairing of Hjalmarrson/Leddy is closer to Letang/Martin than Letang/Martin are to Keith/Seabrook

Saad had 27 points last season in 46 games. Very admirable for a rookie, but to say he was better than Iginla? No. Furthermore, Saad had 6 points in 23 playoff games last year, and a -1 plus-minus.

I'll give you the fact that Keith/Seabrook are the best defensive pairing in hockey. But that doesn't make Kris Letang and Brooks Orpik incompetent. Sutter was a trade deadline deal that beefed up the Pens. He didn't hinder them whatsoever.

Leddy is a solid d-man, especially for his size. But this year, he hasn't been consistently paired with the same guy on the defensive 3rd line pairing. Crawford vs. Fleury is a discussion for a different day I guess. Both have a Cup, and both have been up and down throughout their tenures. Personally, if given the choice, I'd take Fleury over Crawford, but I could be wrong.

[27Blue]

Crosby just thinks and plays the game at a different level from everyone else.
it doesn't show up in advanced or simple stats...



Let’s close this thread and open another titled:
Do the hockey writers choose the strangest topics for discussion in the world?