Is Jonathan Toews The Best Player In The World?

[27Blue]

That's your reply to someone arguing that Toews is better? Too easy.

I think it is that easy. Toews is a great player... easily one of the best in the game. Crosby is generational - an all-time great. If you don't see that when you watch him play then I have to assume you are either new to hockey or you are a naive and biased fourteen year old kid with Blackhawks posters hanging all around your room.

You are better off arguing whether Toews is better than Stamkos or anyone else. Just not Crosby.

[Dakkster]

Outstanding analysis. You taking cheap shots at the Hockey Writers now makes sense.

For anyone with eyes to see, it's so very easy to see that Crosby is superior, yes. I'm sorry that's too complicated for you.

I get it. I really do. This is a marketing campaign, so THW are trotting out some of the usual clickbait "articles" that you've done since the start of the website. It's not quality writing. Never has been for the vast majority of the articles. Now, granted, I haven't read you guys for about a year, but it used to be dreck with pretty piss-poor editing. The team writers often lacked any in-depth understanding of their teams, so you'd see articles about the top five prospects for a team and the actual top two could be left out because of ... reasons. I don't know, but I had you guys on my RSS feed and it was literally a daily thing where I'd come across simple spelling and grammar mistakes, botched player names and glaring factual errors or inadequacies. I tried bringing it up several times and always got some cop-out answer from Bruce.

So yeah... You getting argumentative about Toews vs Crosby on this forum just to boost clicks for your site isn't exactly helping your cause. It's transparent. But hey, whatever floats your boat. It just shows that I did the right thing by ignoring you guys in the first place a year ago.

[ASquared]

I think it is that easy. Toews is a great player... easily one of the best in the game. Crosby is generational - an all-time great. If you don't see that when you watch him play then I have to assume you are either new to hockey or you are a naive and biased fourteen year old kid with Blackhawks posters hanging all around your room.

You are better off arguing whether Toews is better than Stamkos or anyone else. Just not Crosby.

No, when I think of generational, I think of guys who have won multiple championships. I think of Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, ect. And sure, Crosby could end up winning another. But I doubt it. Has a Gretzky-led Oilers team ever been swept in the playoffs? What about Toews? You're hanging your hat on an assumption that the league and media feed you in order to generate sales and viewership. If you can't see that, I'd be left to think of the same as you in regard to bias and whatever else.

[lucifer316]

No, when I think of generational, I think of guys who have won multiple championships. I think of Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, ect. And sure, Crosby could end up winning another. But I doubt it. Has a Gretzky-led Oilers team ever been swept in the playoffs? What about Toews? You're hanging your hat on an assumption that the league and media feed you in order to generate sales and viewership. If you can't see that, I'd be left to think of the same as you in regard to bias and whatever else.

somebody needs to invest in a dictionary then

i have to laugh at the ridiculous OP btw

a debated topic

no, no it has not been a debated topic

[ASquared]

For anyone with eyes to see, it's so very easy to see that Crosby is superior, yes. I'm sorry that's too complicated for you.

I get it. I really do. This is a marketing campaign, so THW are trotting out some of the usual clickbait "articles" that you've done since the start of the website. It's not quality writing. Never has been for the vast majority of the articles. Now, granted, I haven't read you guys for about a year, but it used to be dreck with pretty piss-poor editing. The team writers often lacked any in-depth understanding of their teams, so you'd see articles about the top five prospects for a team and the actual top two could be left out because of ... reasons. I don't know, but I had you guys on my RSS feed and it was literally a daily thing where I'd come across simple spelling and grammar mistakes, botched player names and glaring factual errors or inadequacies. I tried bringing it up several times and always got some cop-out answer from Bruce.

So yeah... You getting argumentative about Toews vs Crosby on this forum just to boost clicks for your site isn't exactly helping your cause. It's transparent. But hey, whatever floats your boat. It just shows that I did the right thing by ignoring you guys in the first place a year ago.

1st of all, I can't speak of the site in the time frame you mention. I'm fairly new to the staff myself. But this was an article that came to me when I wasn't searching for a topic. It's a topic in which I believe in what I'm saying. As far as baiting, that's not me. Sure, it's good to get people to read your stuff, but I honestly enjoy the conversation... well, most of the time anyway.

[ASquared]

somebody needs to invest in a dictionary then

i have to laugh at the ridiculous OP btw

a debated topic

no, no it has not been a debated topic

I was speaking of Stanley Cups. Toews has his gold medals too.

[lucifer316]

I was speaking of Stanley Cups. Toews has his gold medals too.

generational has nothing to do with championships, it has to do with talent

you can't just redefine terms to fit your completely and totally biased argument

[yougo]

Toews' point totals were used to show A.) Crosby's ability and legitimacy in the conversation, and B.) That Toews isn't just a "defensive forward." It's to show that he can still score while maintaining the complete package.

Who has ever said that Toews is a just a "defensive forward" ? Do you think Crosby is not a good defensive forward? I'm confident to say that if you add up their offensive & defensive side of their game. We end up with Crosby > Toews. And if Toews is such a good defensive forward, why does he starts more shifts in the offensive zone than the defensive zone

While there's no argument from me that Crosby's contributions were a major factor in them reaching the Cup Finals in 09, as well as a Game 7, you CANNOT say they won Game 7 because of Crosby. That's laughable. And if Malkin and Talbot don't show up, Toews has 2 Cups to Sid's 0. I stand by my commentary.

Where do I say that the Pens won game 7 because of Crosby? Let's turn this around, what if Duncan Keith didn't have such a great series against PHI or Patrick Kane? Your argument is laughable. Jonathan Toews is so clutch that he only had 14 pts in 23 games last spring. That's one less than Crosby in 9 more games.

I understand that you cannot please everyone, but facts are facts. Toews has more championships with equal talent around him, and has never been swept in the playoffs. If that's a shortcut, I'll take it every time.

With equal talent around him? Have you taken a look at Chicago's roster? Sharp,Kane,Hossa,Byfuglien,Ladd,Keith,Seabrook,Odu ya,Hjmarlsson in 2009-10. Sharp,Kane,Hossa,Saad,Keith,Seabrook,Oduya,Hjmarls son.

This is a much better group than Pittsburgh. Without a doubt.

Again, Toews is a great player. Arguably top5. #1 is Sidney Crosby.

[mister_mcgoo]

what is this bullshit? why do we have these douchebags from thehockeywriters.com plugging their own content here? Sorry boys, but we can think for ourselves here, we don't need your nonsense articles to spurn quality discussion.

As to your question, it's ******ed, you're comparing apples to oranges, they are two completely different players and even ignoring that if if I was building a dynasty team from scratch they would both be in my top 5 without question, you couldn't ask for two better competitors who are more important to their teams than Toews or Crosby, absolutely indispensable

[Dobber]

what is this bullshit? why do we have these douchebags from thehockeywriters.com plugging their own content here? Sorry boys, but we can think for ourselves here, we don't need your nonsense articles to spurn quality discussion.

As to your question, it's ******ed, you're comparing apples to oranges, they are two completely different players and even ignoring that if if I was building a dynasty team from scratch they would both be in my top 5 without question, you couldn't ask for two better competitors who are more important to their teams than Toews or Crosby, absolutely indispensable

I invited them, looking to encourage some lively discussion. Hopefull the members here can welcome the gang at The Hockey Writers and promote healthy dialogue. Will this work, or will you make me look bad in front of my colleagues? "douchebags", really? Just one big paintbrush across all 100 writers over there?

What I can do, for any Dobber forum member who does not want to bother with THW discussion, is I can remove access to The Hockey Writers section of the forum so you never see it (I'm pretty sure I can do that). Let me know if that would be best. Thanks mcgoo

[ovi42]

It's a quality discussion but without measurables it's screaming at the wind. Everyone is arguing to their own perception of what the greatest hockey player means. What makes someone the greatest player alive? Scoring, two way play, leadership, championships, etc? Define those terms and this discussion might go somewhere.
My opinion; greatest player-most likely to impact the play on the ice and the scoresheet. Id say Crosby.
But, best leader: player most likely to impact the game from every angle; ice, dressing room, bench, off ice, practice, etc. I think winning is fairly reflective here as well. I'd give that to Toews.

[4T2]

No.

While I really feel this shouldn't need elaboration, I will because obviously there is at least one person on here who feels that it does. Toews is a great player. Top 3? Maybe. Top 5? Definitely.

If I'm looking to build a hockey team and can pick any player to build it around. I'm taking Crosby, hands down. Does he have the defensive prowess of Toews? No, but he is still responsible in his own end. He is a prolific scorer, by all accounts a great captain and has shown the ability to complete carry his team more often than anyone else playing the game right now. He comes with his downside too (concussion history, whining, diving) but the positives he brings to the table make them negligible.

For the record, just because it was brought up. When THW started up I gave it a shot, but also found the quality of writing at the time to be poor as a whole. There were a few good articles but it was littered with some pretty low quality material which soured me on the site. Perhaps it has improved since then and I'm willing to give it another shot, but if this is any indication of the material on there, I probably won't become a frequent reader.

[Axeman33]

Maybe its just me but if someone was to ask me "Who's the best hockey player in the world", Jonathan Toews name wouldn't be on the tip of my tongue. I am sure after reeling off a few other names he would find his way into my head but my initial reaction is simply Sidney Crosby. Without thought, without hesitation, Sidney Crosby. As far as who would come after that, and before Toews, I would have to start to think, but others would probably come to my head before Toews.

[ssarcu]

Who has ever said that Toews is a just a "defensive forward" ? Do you think Crosby is not a good defensive forward? I'm confident to say that if you add up their offensive & defensive side of their game. We end up with Crosby > Toews. And if Toews is such a good defensive forward, why does he starts more shifts in the offensive zone than the defensive zone

No, Crosby is not a 'good' defensive forward. That is a myth I've seen being propagated for years; everyone assumes defensive ability is a dichotomous variable where a player is either good or terrible. Crosby is and has always been decidedly average. There is no defensive skill that he is particularly exemplary in; he's not a great faceoff guy, has a rather significantly negative GVA/TKY differential, is unremarkable (i.e. not notably good or bad) positionally, doesn't backcheck hard but doesn't necessarily coast along either, etc. I could go on.

"He's good defensively" has become an absurdly common sentiment regarding just about any center in the NHL. In reality it is a game of relativity; by definition there is "good," "average," and "bad." Toews is undeniably of the first category, and Crosby fits the second to a tee.

Where do I say that the Pens won game 7 because of Crosby? Let's turn this around, what if Duncan Keith didn't have such a great series against PHI or Patrick Kane? Your argument is laughable. Jonathan Toews is so clutch that he only had 14 pts in 23 games last spring. That's one less than Crosby in 9 more games.

Points are a vastly overrated metric, at least in a short span. Random variance (read: bad luck) can lead to an effective brutal understatement of how good a player actually was. Toews was an absolutely dominant possession player in the playoffs - especially important given the style Chicago plays - and outproduced every single one of his assignments (other team's best center) in each series.

Cups are a team award, of that there isn't any doubt... but there is considerable merit when we're discussing the best player on two different Cup-winning teams, and that is exactly what Toews is. He has been brilliant in both playoff runs. Look further than just points - that is a boring, trite, and entirely deceiving route to take in judging player effectiveness.

With equal talent around him? Have you taken a look at Chicago's roster? Sharp,Kane,Hossa,Byfuglien,Ladd,Keith,Seabrook,Odu ya,Hjmarlsson in 2009-10. Sharp,Kane,Hossa,Saad,Keith,Seabrook,Oduya,Hjmarls son.

Pittsburgh's top-end talent (which incidentally is who Crosby gets to play with, most often on the PP) is better than Chicago's. The Blackhawks have more depth. I'd agree Chicago has more overall talent, but the edge is pretty small.
The difference between the two is that Chicago actually runs a competent system that fits their roster and has a great coach.

This is a much better group than Pittsburgh. Without a doubt.

Again, it really isn't. Not by any appreciable amount, anyway.

[27Blue]

No, Crosby is not a 'good' defensive forward. That is a myth I've seen being propagated for years; everyone assumes defensive ability is a dichotomous variable where a player is either good or terrible. Crosby is and has always been decidedly average. There is no defensive skill that he is particularly exemplary in; he's not a great faceoff guy, has a rather significantly negative GVA/TKY differential, is unremarkable (i.e. not notably good or bad) positionally, doesn't backcheck hard but doesn't necessarily coast along either, etc. I could go on.

"He's good defensively" has become an absurdly common sentiment regarding just about any center in the NHL. In reality it is a game of relativity; by definition there is "good," "average," and "bad." Toews is undeniably of the first category, and Crosby fits the second to a tee.


Points are a vastly overrated metric, at least in a short span. Random variance (read: bad luck) can lead to an effective brutal understatement of how good a player actually was. Toews was an absolutely dominant possession player in the playoffs - especially important given the style Chicago plays - and outproduced every single one of his assignments (other team's best center) in each series.

Cups are a team award, of that there isn't any doubt... but there is considerable merit when we're discussing the best player on two different Cup-winning teams, and that is exactly what Toews is. He has been brilliant in both playoff runs. Look further than just points - that is a boring, trite, and entirely deceiving route to take in judging player effectiveness.


Pittsburgh's top-end talent (which incidentally is who Crosby gets to play with, most often on the PP) is better than Chicago's. The Blackhawks have more depth. I'd agree Chicago has more overall talent, but the edge is pretty small.
The difference between the two is that Chicago actually runs a competent system that fits their roster and has a great coach.


Again, it really isn't. Not by any appreciable amount, anyway.

I disagree with EVERYTHING you just wrote. Are you serious? Crosby isn't good a face-offs? He doesn't back-check? No defensive skill that he is good at? Better linemates? Not sure why I even bothered replying, but this is hilarious.