[Cage Match Tournament] #1 Ovechkin vs. #2 Crosby

[SeaDawg]

this isn't about Crosby not being a valuable fantasy asset, but if I had Crosby right now I'd be trading him for Ovechkin in a second before he gets injured again. I am almost certain if Crosby was not yet playing, most people would be downright insulted if I offered them my Crosby for their Ovechkin. Heck, I still really doubt many Ovechkin owners would seriously consider trading him to me for Crosby.

[Ross The Boss Palmer]

Everyone is looking at his concussion without considering that the symptoms from his fractured vertebrae are the same as a concussion. In fact, the degree of his concussion or whether he even had a concussion at all can be completely called into question. They have the same symptoms. As soon as he was began receiving treatment for soft tissue damage around the vertebrae he finally recovered fully. When he originally returned he still had the soft tissue damage around the vertebrae and would have been sidelined again regardless if he had received a hit or not. This is not a case similar to Lindros or any one of the sort.

[stick boy]

If you want to use examples here are some other ones to add to your already extensive sample set of one player:

Players who have come back strong post-concussion:
-Bergeron

Players who's careers have been shortened:
-Savard
-Lafontaine
-Gagne
-Lindros
-Stevens
-Kariya
-Primeau
-Richter
-McDonald (Andy)


Crosby's missed most of the last 2 seasons, and he's been out for extended periods twice... hmmm I wonder which list he's more likely to land on?

I haven't gone through all of these posts, but I wonder if this has been addressed.

Does Backstrom's uncertain future also affect Ovie's value in this comparison? The do it all myself Ovie days seem to be over and he hasn't adapted his game like a Kovalchuk has

[St. Patrick]

If you want to use examples here are some other ones to add to your already extensive sample set of one player:

Players who have come back strong post-concussion:
-Bergeron

Players who's careers have been shortened:
-Savard
-Lafontaine
-Gagne
-Lindros
-Stevens
-Kariya
-Primeau
-Richter
-McDonald (Andy)


Crosby's missed most of the last 2 seasons, and he's been out for extended periods twice... hmmm I wonder which list he's more likely to land on?

If you're going to be misleading/lazy don't even bother with a list. Off the top of my head Burns and Slater recently, Alfredsson had a massive one and has been fine since. There are just as many who have come back as who haven't. In today's shortsighted society (see results in this vote) people tend to forget the guys who've years since injury been fine. Just remember the guys it killed.

Everyone is asking about Sid's health, but why is no one asking about Ovi's production. Sid issues aside, are we comparing him to 70pt, 85pt, 100pt or 110+pt Ovi? However you answer that question will likely determine who you vote for.

My thoughts: Sid is a hit away from who knows what, but when he's playing hes hands down best player in tournament. Second place right now isn't even close. But Ovi today isn't Ovi of 3 years ago. If he hits 85pts next season I'd call that a success, if he hit 110 I'd be blown away. If this were Sid (concussion injuries and all) vs 2008 Ovi, it's not even close I take Ovi. But it's Sid vs 2012 Ovi, and that's a whole lot different of a question. Concussion issues vs Production issues, I'll lean towards the higher upside. In this case Sid.

[blayze]

Are you guys being serious? How can you guys seriously compare Burns, Slater and Alfie's situation to Sid's. Sid's been out the better part of 2 seasons... those guys were out a few games. There's a BIG difference.

The length of Sid's downtime and the severity of his symptoms says odds are he's more likely to fall into the list of players who's careers have been shortened as opposed to Giroux/Burns/Alfie who were out for a few weeks. Bergeron is the only legit guy that comes to my mind (I'm sure there are others I've missed) who was out for an extended period of time and came back to play at 100% - and even he didn't miss as much time as Crosby.

Time to take off those rose-colored glasses ladies.

[metaldude26]

Are you guys being serious? How can you guys seriously compare Burns, Slater and Alfie's situation to Sid's. Sid's been out the better part of 2 seasons... those guys were out a few games. There's a BIG difference.

The length of Sid's downtime and the severity of his symptoms says odds are he's more likely to fall into the list of players who's careers have been shortened as opposed to Giroux/Burns/Alfie who were out for a few weeks. Bergeron is the only legit guy that comes to my mind (I'm sure there are others I've missed) who was out for an extended period of time and came back to play at 100% - and even he didn't miss as much time as Crosby.

Time to take off those rose-colored glasses ladies.

Burns missed 19 games one season and then another 35 the following season after multiple concussions. There was a shoulder surgery in there too so maybe some of the 35 were from that but still his example sticks.

[3rtpaper]

It is a simple risk vs reward and I will take the risk of Crosby everyday because he is that much better than Ovechkin. Everyone says "1 hit away from retirement" that is true but so is every player in this league. The fact that Crosby has played so little hockey over the last year and comes back and is racking up points like he is really shows how much better he is than Ovechkin.

For all those fantasy doctors out there saying that he is more prone to having a career ending concussion are wrong, once fully recovered from a concussion you are no more likely to suffer another concussion than someone who has never had a concussion before. There is a reason why the Penguins played it safe with him and held him out that long.. to ensure that he was FULLY healed.

Crosby for me anyday.

[SeaDawg]

For all those fantasy doctors out there saying that he is more prone to having a career ending concussion are wrong, once fully recovered from a concussion you are no more likely to suffer another concussion than someone who has never had a concussion before. There is a reason why the Penguins played it safe with him and held him out that long.. to ensure that he was FULLY healed.

A few things...

First, when you say he is no more likely to suffer a concussion than someone else, that is debatable. Some concussion experts think you are more likely to suffer a concussion. The fact is NO ONE knows for sure the impact concussions have on the brain and NO ONE knows for certain how likely you are to sustain another concussion if you have a history of concussions.

Second, when I say Crosby is more likely to suffer a career-ending concussion, I don't mean that he is necessarily more prone to concussions. What I mostly mean is that if he does suffer another concussion, it could likely be more damaging than the previous concussion(s) he suffered. I say this from personal experience and after seeing numerous "experts" about my own concussion history. Concussions have a cumulative effect on the brain and each new concussion causes further brain damage and oftentimes the victim takes longer to recover from subsequent concussions. It took me over a year to get over my last concussion, which btw was not as violent an impact as most of my previous concussions.

Third, you assume Crosby is fully recovered from his latest concussion. Again, no one knows for sure if he is fully recovered yet. He might feel better right now, but he is still susceptible to a relapse. I know the Penguins are playing it safe and sending Crosby to all the best experts in the world, but concussions are still generally a mystery that doctors haven't completely figured out. There are a lot of conflicting opinions among the medical community still.

[Ross The Boss Palmer]

Are you guys being serious? How can you guys seriously compare Burns, Slater and Alfie's situation to Sid's. Sid's been out the better part of 2 seasons... those guys were out a few games. There's a BIG difference.

The length of Sid's downtime and the severity of his symptoms says odds are he's more likely to fall into the list of players who's careers have been shortened as opposed to Giroux/Burns/Alfie who were out for a few weeks. Bergeron is the only legit guy that comes to my mind (I'm sure there are others I've missed) who was out for an extended period of time and came back to play at 100% - and even he didn't miss as much time as Crosby.

Time to take off those rose-colored glasses ladies.

Please take the time to read and digest my comment earlier. There is no definitive proof that Crosby specifically had a concussion. He had concussion like symptoms, which also happened to be the symptoms that he experienced from his fractured vertebrae and sub sequential soft tissue damage. There is actually no definitive proof that he experienced a concussion or substantial head injury from the MRI and CAT scans that he underwent. As far as predicting his future, you can only look at the neck injury, any discussion of a concussion is effectively null.

[SeaDawg]

Please take the time to read and digest my comment earlier. There is no definitive proof that Crosby specifically had a concussion. He had concussion like symptoms, which also happened to be the symptoms that he experienced from his fractured vertebrae and sub sequential soft tissue damage. There is actually no definitive proof that he experienced a concussion or substantial head injury from the MRI and CAT scans that he underwent. As far as predicting his future, you can only look at the neck injury, any discussion of a concussion is effectively null.

I don't think it has been completely ruled out that Crosby DIDN'T have a concussion, in addition to the apparent neck injury.

[Ross The Boss Palmer]

I don't think it has been completely ruled out that Crosby DIDN'T have a concussion, in addition to the apparent neck injury.

Agreed. He may have, he may not have. If he did have a concussion, the severity is of complete question, as he was potentially experiencing the same symptoms from two completely different injuries.

Edit: Which is why Crosby has to be considered completely separate than the other players who had concussions, because scientifically, it is just as easy to prove that he didn't have a concussion. What symptoms can be attributed to his neck injury or what symptoms could be attributed to a concussion? We know definitely that he had a neck injury, everything else can be put into question because the MRI and CAT scans he received did not definitely show anything.

[SeaDawg]

Agreed. He may have, he may not have. If he did have a concussion, the severity is of complete question, as he was potentially experiencing the same symptoms from two completely different injuries.

Edit: Which is why Crosby has to be considered completely separate than the other players who had concussions, because scientifically, it is just as easy to prove that he didn't have a concussion, and what symptoms can be attributed to his neck injury or what symptoms coulld be attributed to a concussion.

I sort of agree with what you are saying, but still feel Crosby is a risk. Again, not so much of a risk that I wouldn't take him over most every other player in the league. But right now I personally would not take him over Malkin and Ovechkin. I "might" get burned by that decision, if Crosby can really steer clear of another concussion, but to me I'd rather go with the players with similar (albeit a bit less) upside but without any questionable (possible) concussion history to worry about.

I guess OV and Crosby will always be compared. I just feel that most people are down on Ovechkin because of his poor play recently and are forgetting that he can, and I firmly feel will, be one of the most dominate players in the game.

[blayze]

Please take the time to read and digest my comment earlier. There is no definitive proof that Crosby specifically had a concussion. He had concussion like symptoms, which also happened to be the symptoms that he experienced from his fractured vertebrae and sub sequential soft tissue damage. There is actually no definitive proof that he experienced a concussion or substantial head injury from the MRI and CAT scans that he underwent. As far as predicting his future, you can only look at the neck injury, any discussion of a concussion is effectively null.

You are arguing over semantics here...

Nobody knows if the follow-up injury was concussion or neck related. The penguins medical staff probably doesn't even know the 100% underlying cause. My point is - it doesn't matter... the risk should be enough to scare you.

The fact of the matter is, the dude missed most of last season from a concussion he's missed a big chunk of this season from a concussion (the initial games missed) and then missed another huge chunk of games from what could be a concussion or neck injury... who cares what it was? We're never going to know the answer, so why take the risk on the optimistic hope that it was his neck and not his head? Doesn't change the risk in my view... you still have a guy who's missed a shit load of games over the last 2 seasons from concussion.

[Big Ev]

I think the poll numbers speak for themselves.

[Ross The Boss Palmer]

You are arguing over semantics here...

Nobody knows if the follow-up injury was concussion or neck related. The penguins medical staff probably doesn't even know the 100% underlying cause. My point is - it doesn't matter... the risk should be enough to scare you.

The fact of the matter is, the dude missed most of last season from a concussion he's missed a big chunk of this season from a concussion (the initial games missed) and then missed another huge chunk of games from what could be a concussion or neck injury... who cares what it was? We're never going to know the answer, so why take the risk on the optimistic hope that it was his neck and not his head? Doesn't change the risk in my view... you still have a guy who's missed a shit load of games over the last 2 seasons from concussion.

It's not semantics. I am studying neurology at the moment. There is a huge difference. You cannot definitively say he missed time last season from a concussion, only concussion-like symptoms, same goes with this season. To say he definitively had a concussion and missed games this season and last season because of a concussion is wrong. Biomechanically, the force applied to his head from the Steckel hit transfered to his neck, dissipating after the vertebrae fracture. With the Hedman hit, Hedman pushes his upper back and neck into the boards and Crosby is seen wincing. In both cases, I can argue biomechanically that his head never received and experienced enough direct or indirect force to the head without the force dissipating to cause trauma to warrant the diagnosis of a concussion. Without positive MRI or CAT scans to prove trauma, stating that he missed time last season or this season due to a concussion is plain wrong.