HUGE NEWS OUT OF PHILLY

[lanky522]

Dobber wrote:

Talk to me in 2010, when they still have three years each left on the deal. Six years should not happen in a salary cap world. No matter how good it looks at the time. Six years is a long...long...time.

Remember, Yashin was seven years and it was done after an 88 and 94 point season. It took one year before the contract looked dumb. It took two years before it looked really dumb. Three years before it was just downright stupid. And four years before...well you get the picture.

Again - I\'m with you Angus on the dollars. Yes they are overpaying and can overpay - they have tons of room. But in three years they may need that room for other things. It is stupid to tie your hands like that a few years down the road. Could they have done the same deal but for four years? If they added another $300,000 per year and made it for four years, could the deal have been done? That may have been the better way to go.

Do you remember what you were doing six years ago? Six years ago Kovalev and Allison had 95 point seasons and Pavel Bure had 92. Sign one of them to a six year deal and how would that look today as their contracts expire?

It\'s a golden rule of salary caps - keep the terms as short as possible!

I like this point of view...

In addition to what I was saying about how they\'ll have mediocre draft picks and average season records for the next few years, they\'ve locked up a good deal of their money in two good but not great players for six years.

Even if and when their prospects do improve and come along, they won\'t be able to pay any of them because so much of their money is locked up in a second line winger and a veteran defender who\'s main purpose for the next 6 years is mentoring.

They also locked up 25ish million dollars in a winger who may or may not ever become anything. That\'s a lot to pay based on what he could do and not what he has done.

I think phili has just solidified themselves as a good team that never goes anywhere in the playoffs (similar to what they were with lindros and leclair in the 90s). That\'s why I say they\'ve reverted to their old self.

This team will not win a cup in the next 2 or 3 years, and who knows what will happen to them after that. Don\'t get your hopes up.

[lanky522]

Well... Forsberg was a number one center, which phili still doesn\'t have... so until phili lands gomez or briere... I\'d have to say they\'re still on the losing end. The other guys are great, the prospects are great, but they are all bit players. Trading a star for various bit players is a losing deal any day in my book... Bit players don\'t win championships.

It is exciting that phili now has a legit pp quarterback, goalie, and second line left winger, but again (as I said in another post in this thread), this just breaks them even with the rest of the teams in the league. It by no means makes them a cup contender.

[Chadosaur]

I keep flip-flopping as to whether I like this deal. I think it needs to be split up into 2 parts. First part is the Forsberg deal, and Philly came out of that one looking golden. At that point, we have to look at what Philly is sitting with in their pocket - Upshall, Parent, and Nashville\'s first rounder.

Then we move onto the Hartnell/Timmonen deal. In my mind, this is where I\'m torn. At those kind of prices and contract lengths, Philly could likely have lured either of those guys on the open market, because no other GM, except maybe Garth Snow, is going to give those guys much more (if any) in terms of $$$ or length. In my mind, they\'ve used up a first-rounder that could have been saved, for example, for a draft-day deal/steal. What I\'m left with is the feeling that Philly has unnecessarily thrown away an asset.

Plus, if Alexei Yashin has taught us anything, long term deals = bad! I\'m with Dobber on this point. What happens in (for example) 2 years? If both players pan out well, the most that you can say is that their contracts look ok. If they don\'t pan out, then you\'re looking at an expensive buy-out or un-tradeable baggage. So unless these guys put Philly over the top for a big playoff run (*raised eyebrow*) I don\'t see how Philly can feel that they won this deal.

So, by default, Preds win the deal because they got something for players that weren\'t going to be theirs anyway come July 1.

[lanky522]

Firstly, retirees don\'t free cap space. That\'s why it\'s stupid to sign old guys long term. His 3.5 million is there whether he plays or not.

Secondly, I don\'t think (nor think I said) that they should \"blow up the team.\" I just think that signing average guys to 6 year deals is not the way to go. Yes it\'s exciting that they are doing something, but this is by no means the solution to their last place finish.

They may make the playoffs next season. Great, then they\'ll lose in the first or second round, and get a horrible draft pick. Then the next year it\'ll happen again. They don\'t have any stars on their team. They have a bunch of good guys that (if they play well together and are coached properly) can do well.

You don\'t win a cup without stars. (Gagne is not a star. He only plays well when he has a star center. Stars don\'t need a center - Alex Ovechkin).

All phili has done up to this point, is made themselves good enough to compete with the rest of the league. A cup is simply out of the question without MUCH more work.

I\'m not hating, that\'s just how it is.

P.S. The prospects that everyone is citing are average at best. None of them are blue chippers, and most of them are spoiled goods that other teams decided wouldn\'t live up to their potential... So I reaffirm my previous statement that the flyers\' future still doesn\'t look to great.

At least when you suck you get good draft picks (see the pittsburgh penguins). All Phili has done is made sure that they will be good enough to never get any big name guys in the draft for the next 2-3 years

[lanky522]

Chadosaur wrote:

So, by default, Preds win the deal because they got something for players that weren\'t going to be theirs anyway come July 1.

Kharma point Chadosaur. We\'ve been analyzing the phili side of the deal. This is a GREAT point. If nashville was going to lose these guys anyways, then this a great way of getting something for them.

Very rarely do playoff contenders get anything for their ufa\'s that they hold onto for their run (see buffalo with briere/drury). Nashville got a first round pick out of it.

Yes it\'s true that they gave it up in the first place, but it\'s a better return than San Jose with guerin and Atlanta with Tkachuk, etc...

[honduranhockey]

I wonder if this means Nashville is going to actively pursue some UFAs, or at least throw more money at Kariya.

Also, how does this impact Dobberhockey favourite Radulov for next year? Is he suddenly thrown on the top line?

[WhatThePuck?]

lanky522 wrote:

Firstly, retirees don\'t free cap space. That\'s why it\'s stupid to sign old guys long term. His 3.5 million is there whether he plays or not.

As per my understanding yes, they do. Rathje is under 35 yrs of age & teams are allowed relief from the cap as a result of injury.

Secondly, I don\'t think (nor think I said) that they should \"blow up the team.\" I just think that signing average guys to 6 year deals is not the way to go. Yes it\'s exciting that they are doing something, but this is by no means the solution to their last place finish.

You said this in the Vanek offer sheet thread.

lanky522 wrote:
They need to blow the team up, keeping the bare core of players, and reBUILD. They can\'t reTOOL, or reLOAD, or anything else. They will not win the cup doing the halfassed rebuilding they are doing. They may make the playoffs, but who cares if you lose as soon as you get there? They will continue to be a team like toronto (finishing in the middle of the league every year) AT BEST, with the current path they are on.

They may make the playoffs next season. Great, then they\'ll lose in the first or second round, and get a horrible draft pick. Then the next year it\'ll happen again. They don\'t have any stars on their team. They have a bunch of good guys that (if they play well together and are coached properly) can do well.

You don\'t win a cup without stars. (Gagne is not a star. He only plays well when he has a star center. Stars don\'t need a center - Alex Ovechkin).

It was also said you don\'t win a Cup without a stud on the point yet Carolina proved otherwise. And having a Star doesn\'t translate into playoff success - using your same example of Ovechkin. Not to mention that star players takea large majority of your cap space - see Tampa Bay Lightning.

P.S. The prospects that everyone is citing are average at best. None of them are blue chippers, and most of them are spoiled goods that other teams decided wouldn\'t live up to their potential... So I reaffirm my previous statement that the flyers\' future still doesn\'t look to great.

The Hockey Bible (aka THN) has Philly prospect Steve Downie (#16)Ryan Parent(#21)& Claude Giroux(#41) all in the top 50. Coburn is starting to show the form that had him drafted in the 1st round. More experience for Ruzicka & Potulny upfront means a nice young core of forwards (those 2 plus Upshall, Hartnell, Gagne, Carter & Richards) playing the hardnosed style that is Flyer hockey. Add the #2 pick into the mix & I think Philly looks like they have started rounding into a playoff team alot quicker than I had anticipated.

[Zorro]

$4.2 for Hartnell and $6.3 for Timmonen.

Now that is a little bit pricey for both those guys. I like that Philly is trying to get good players but this is a little too much..

Hartnell is a 2nd or 3rd liner, they don\'t deserve $4.2. Timmonen is really good but $6.3 per year is an outrage. Philly will regret this deal come 3 or 4 years from now.

Why not sign Gomez for $6 and then give Hamrlik $3, problem solved.

Thats all I really have to say. Good players just too much money spent.

[lanky522]

What the Puck wrote:

Add the #2 pick into the mix & I think Philly looks like they have started rounding into a playoff team alot quicker than I had anticipated.

I agree with you that they are turning their team around very well, and they will have a good team in the next couple of years. They won\'t win a cup though they just won\'t. They have the core they need, but they don\'t have the stars.

It was also said you don\'t win a Cup without a stud on the point yet Carolina proved otherwise. And having a Star doesn\'t translate into playoff success - using your same example of Ovechkin. Not to mention that star players takea large majority of your cap space - see Tampa Bay Lightning.

It seems to me that E. Staal had 100+ points that year for Carolina. Show me a Phili player that has EVER had 100 points and I\'ll conceed this arguement. Carolina also had Brind\'Amour who is one of if not the best clutch veteran players in the league (not to say anything about his defensive ability and leadership qualities).

Say what you want about tampa bay paying their stars lots of money... they had 37 points more in the standings this year than phili and made the playoffs.

As per my understanding yes, they do. Rathje is under 35 yrs of age & teams are allowed relief from the cap as a result of injury.

Yes you do get cap help if they retire because of an injury, but I don\'t know that it can be proven that Rathje\'s injury is forcing him to retire (if he does indeed even retire in the first place).

P.S. I guess I did say \"blow up\" but if you keep reading in the quote I also said, keeping a core of players. That means, get rid of Knuble, get rid of Hatcher, get rid of all the dead weight. If you have to buy them out, buy them out. Otherwise, regardless of who you add, you\'ll still be playing guys that don\'t contribute positively to the direction the team is trying to move. I wasn\'t trying to infer that they should get rid of Gagne, Carter, or any of their youth, I was just saying they need to dump their dead weight.

P.P.S. Has Pavel Bure ever actually retired? Off topic I know, but dobber brought him up in his post on this thread and with the Rathje talk i started thinking...

Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/06/18 17:46

[Dobber]

I don\'t mind the money. Yes, far too much, but this team has a lot of pieces in place they just need to add a few veterans.

Now they need two less. Philly has a great team, while at the same time maintaining their youth.

Good ol\' Lanky, riling up the forum again. :laugh: I love it!

I think Nashville and Philly were both smart in this deal...but Philly really needed to cut back the term of the contract, as I said above. Way too long and they will likely regret it in the end. I\'ve never heard of a contract for five years or more signed since 1997 that the team has not come to regret.

B)

[jj0786]

GREAT DEAL FOR PHILLY and nashville getting a 1st rounder for guys that we not comin back buh wow PILLY overpaid both kimmo and hartnall

[lanky522]

Dobber wrote:

Good ol\' Lanky, riling up the forum again. I love it!

HAHA you know it. I\'m just trying real hard not to step on any toes to hard though... I know Phili fans are some of the most passionate out there, and I\'m not trying to get any death threats here lol...

I\'m not trying to say this move hasn\'t helped phili, but I just want to make sure that people out there don\'t hype these deals for more than they are. Yes, Phili addressed some major issues, but they are just now getting as good as the rest of the teams that crushed them last year. Even with the addition of a name brand center, they will just be good enough to compete for a playoff spot.

They are by no means a favorite to win their division next year. They will be good enough to compete and get themselves a crappy draft pick for years to come (ala Toronto).

I understand that re-building teams can be very taxing to the fan base, and that economically, it makes sense to \"retool\" or \"reload\" to keep attendance up, but I really think that phili should\'ve gone a different route.

I would\'ve hoped to have seen them go after some key RFA\'s (I mean really gone after them, not just offer them contracts so their teams have to pay them more like they did last year), buy out Hatcher and Gauthier\'s bloated contracts (it would cost them a fortune this year I know, but it\'d be much better for their future plans), and then offer all their RFA\'s more money while maybe persuing a center and a couple of defenders. I just think that Hartnell (while being a great second liner) isn\'t really necessary to this team. They have a bunch of prospects who will fit in on the second/third lines. What they should be spending money on is a first line center and right wing.

That\'s just my take on things... If they get a great top center and a top right wing, I suppose that I\'ll be appeased, I just think that they should\'ve taken one more year to prep, and then made a big push the following year.

[lanky522]

Z wrote:

Why not sign Gomez for $6 and then give Hamrlik $3, problem solved.

Because Z, they couldn\'t give away all their 1st round draft picks and sign guys for open market prices...

What a waste of a first round pick... Nashville is snickering in the sidelines, because they know that these players would have probably signed with Phili for free if the Flyers sent them offers like this during free agency...

Phili\'s phones are probably ringing off the hook right now, with other teams trying to trade them the rights to their players...

[lanky522]

I\'d just like to add that after a quick look at the salaries around the league, I\'ve discovered that Hartnell will be the 37th highest paid forward in the LEAGUE. For those of you who think that he\'s worth it, I\'ll say this: there were 149 forwards who had more points than him at the end of last season.

There are also ZERO second liners that make more than 4.2 million dollars a year (against the cap) in the league. All I\'ve got to say is I hope Phili thinks he\'s a top line sort of guy. Because otherwise, 4.2 million dollars for six years is one heck of a commitment.

[repenttokyo]

It was also said you don\'t win a Cup without a stud on the point yet Carolina proved otherwise.

lanky522 wrote:

It seems to me that E. Staal had 100+ points that year for Carolina. Show me a Phili player that has EVER had 100 points and I\'ll conceed this arguement. Carolina also had Brind\'Amour who is one of if not the best clutch veteran players in the league (not to say anything about his defensive ability and leadership qualities).

P.P.S. Has Pavel Bure ever actually retired? Off topic I know, but dobber brought him up in his post on this thread and with the Rathje talk i started thinking...<br><br>Post edited by: lanky522, at: 2007/06/18 17:46

you didn\'t address his point at all. He said: Carolina didn\'t have a stud on the blue line. Which they didn\'t. There was no need to bring Staal and Brindy into the picture, unless you wanted to prove his point which was other players can make up for having a stud on the blueline.

Pavel Bure runs Russia\'s international hockey program, and has for quite some time now.

Post edited by: repenttokyo, at: 2007/06/18 18:37

Post edited by: repenttokyo, at: 2007/06/18 18:38