Carlson vs Leddy

[blayze]

Carlson and Leddy are 6 to 1, half a dozen to the other in a one year. Long term, I'll tell ya this. Carlson is Pronger (without the pim) while Leddy is Timmonen.

That's just a ridiculous statement.

I'm not going to debate who's better long-term because I haven't followed these guys enough yet, but Leddy is hands-down the better choice one-year. He's shown a lot more offensively, and more importantly he has a lot less depth to deal with. Once Green comes back, Carlson will never see the light of day on the PP.

I've also read this entire thread, and quite frankly I don't find any of your subjective arguments for either player compelling or convincing. I think the arguments for both sides quite frankly are almost completely subjective and sound a little like bullshit. In fact, this is starting to sound too familiar to an MT thread.

I'm no Carlson expert but I've watched him a few times, and I would hardly say he's far and away the great 2-way player that you guys are building him up to be. Quite frankly, I agree with Fung... Carlson was largely hyped when he entered the league, and I think a lot of it has been undeserved based on what I've seen.

Leddy - as hot as he is, he's hardly played enough games to determine how well he'll do long term or even to talk about things like his "vision on the ice".

You guys need to lay off the subjective, arbitrary bullshit, especially when dealing with these younger players who don't have a lengthy body of work on which to really draw solid conclusions.

[mounD]

I just wanna shout-out to my boy Blayze, bringing some levity to this thread...

[fungchen3]

Really? So because Visnovsky has such a brutal start and BergerOn has looked like a stud do you trade Luby for Marc?

I never said that either. Visnovsky was the D scoring champ last season with 68 points - Carlson had 37 without missing a single game. Big difference there. Visnovsky has put up multiple years in the 50/60 point range - Carlson has never cracked 40. And Leddy is a young kid who was drafted out of high school with a pedigree and bright future. MAB has always been a PP spe******t that packs a big shot but is horrific in his own zone. These situations are totally different. Know what I mean?

[ridinryan44]

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that in a 1-year points only league, there is no basis for choosing Carlson over Leddy this year, none.

I never said Kessel will lead the league in scoring...and I never said Leddy will lead D-Men in scoring either...but WHAT has John Carlson accomplished in his illustrious career that make Leddy outperforming him this year such a stretch?

Carlson is NOT Visnovsky or Letang or Yandle, Green or Doughty. In fact, Carlson is a far better defenseman in real life then he is in fantasy. Leddy and Carlson were both highly regarded players in their respective draft years and both have tremendous upside. Carlson has a better shot and is physically stronger and more polished in his own end, but Leddy is the better skater and smoother puckmover.

Carlson was drafted 26th and Leddy 19th a year later - point being, they are very comparable players in terms of upside, but Carlson's hype has been ridiculously overblown because he plays for the Caps (which isn't exactly a fantasy bonus right now).

I'll tell you what, I'd be willing to make a bet with you right now, re: Carlson vs. Leddy...

I bet you Leddy ends up with more Points-per-Game than Carlson this season. And I'm using PPG so that potential games lost to injury do not sway the totals at all. Loser of the bet buys the other guy the Dobber prospect/fantasy Guide pack next year. Deal?

I
Could agree that Carson's has been overblown - but because of the team he's on? Carlson has been FAR better offensively than Leddy both in junior and in the AHL. Man. Obviously what I'm saying is getting overblown cus I'm getting shit on here.

Let me say this. Carlson and Leddy are very equal in terms of productions. PERSONALlY I think Carlson will be better, but that's opinion. What I am against is saying that Leddy is better. I just don't get how Leddy is better because he's gotten points so far this year. I'll sAy, Maybe I'm wrong in the whole "Carlson > Leddy" easily. I'll take that's back of I have to. Personally, I still believe it BUT I just don't know what it is that makes Leddy better all of a sudden, especially after Carlson has played a year I the NHL and proved himself as one of the better two-way dmen in the league, not according to just me, but NHL media as well.

[bigbabybuda]

Thanks blaze but it's hard as shit to not go a little overboard in your assessment when your discussing the matter against 3 people that are pretty much saying Leddy feel off some truck out of no were and Carlson is a multiple Norris winner, but your right I wen't over board I simply end it with this.

1year:
Leddy>Carlson

Keeper:
Leddy>Carlson

[ridinryan44]

I never said that either. Visnovsky was the D scoring champ last season with 68 points - Carlson had 37 without missing a single game. Big difference there. Visnovsky has put up multiple years in the 50/60 point range - Carlson has never cracked 40. And Leddy is a young kid who was drafted out of high school with a pedigree and bright future. MAB has always been a PP spe******t that packs a big shot but is horrific in his own zone. These situations are totally different. Know what I mean?

You're right. It was an extreme example and a stretch. But. Do this. Compare Carlson's numbers and leddy's. All I'm saying is I don't see any reason to pick Leddy over Carlson.

[blayze]

You're right. It was an extreme example and a stretch. But. Do this. Compare Carlson's numbers and leddy's. All I'm saying is I don't see any reason to pick Leddy over Carlson.

If everyone took your college "stats" approach then we wouldn't need pro scouts and guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk wouldn't be in the NHL.

[fungchen3]

I
Could agree that Carson's has been overblown - but because of the team he's on? Carlson has been FAR better offensively than Leddy both in junior and in the AHL. Man. Obviously what I'm saying is getting overblown cus I'm getting shit on here.

Let me say this. Carlson and Leddy are very equal in terms of productions. PERSONALlY I think Carlson will be better, but that's opinion. What I am against is saying that Leddy is better. I just don't get how Leddy is better because he's gotten points so far this year. I'll state? Maybe I'm wrong in the whole "Carlson > Leddy" easily. I'll take that's back of I have to. Personally, I still believe it BUT I just don't know what it is that makes Leddy better all of a sudden, especially after Carlson has played a year I the NHL and proved himself as one of the better two-way dmen in the league, not according to just me, but NHL media as well.

Well, here's my "more in-depth" take on the situation:

Carlson is more of a big body, well-rounded defenseman. He's a lumbering skater who isn't smooth, but he can still lug the puck and he has an absolute canon from the point. The thing is, the Caps are molding him to be a "defense"man more than an offensive threat - mainly because he's good enough to do it, and they have Green, Wideman and (eventually) Orlov to supply the high-octane offense. So, from a role standpoint, Carlson will often be used in a way where his fantasy impact may not be maximized. Right now, he isn't getting quality PP time and that is even without Green in the lineup. Maybe down the line he does, but if we're focusing on "this year only" - which we are in this discussion - than it hurts Carlson's potential production quite a bit.

Leddy, on the other hand, appears to be a kid coming into his own. He's been handed an opportunity and he's making the best of it. Could he be a flash-in-the-pan? I guess you could say that because he hasn't "proven" anything. But you don't usually get drafted in the 1st round straight out of high school if pro scouts don't see huge upside in your game. Watching Leddy play right now, he looks pretty darn good and you can clearly see his offensive instincts. In terms of his situation, Keith is struggling and Seabrook is banged up. The more Leddy impresses, the more likely the Hawks will continue to reward him with minutes and PP time - because, quite frankly, his game is more suited for that role than Seabrook's is.

At the end of the day, all of this is opinion (in both of our cases). But using the information we know, I think a clear case can be made that Leddy is the better "fantasy" defenseman this year. Long-term, I think we need to see more of both players to fully make an informed opinion. I do know this - and I've said it from day 1 - Carlson is a gifted player with a bright fantasy future...but he would not have nearly the same amount of hype if he were on a team like MIN or FLA. Fantasy GMs seem to pack an extra 10+ points on a player if they play for PIT or WASH - remember Paul Martin last year? He went from NJ to PIT and people automatically thought the cartoon Penguin on his chest would turn him into a 50+ point defenseman.

[ridinryan44]

If everyone took your college "stats" approach then we wouldn't need pro scouts and guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk wouldn't be in the NHL.

It's not a golden rule but doesn't it play a part? I dunno man. Not saying anything "for a fact" but here's my argument.

Carlosk has better "junior" numbers

Carlson has a better NHL career so far

Carlson is known as a "big game player" (wjc and AHL championships)



Here's all I'm saying. I'm yet to see anything that says Leddy is better. Can I say he's not? **** no. That's opinion. But based in what I know I just don't understand Leddy being better

[ridinryan44]

Well, here's my "more in-depth" take on the situation:

Carlson is more of a big body, well-rounded defenseman. He's a lumbering skater who isn't smooth, but he can still lug the puck and he has an absolute canon from the point. The thing is, the Caps are molding him to be a "defense"man more than an offensive threat - mainly because he's good enough to do it, and they have Green, Wideman and (eventually) Orlov to supply the high-octane offense. So, from a role standpoint, Carlson will often be used in a way where his fantasy impact may not be maximized. Right now, he isn't getting quality PP time and that is even without Green in the lineup. Maybe down the line he does, but if we're focusing on "this year only" - which we are in this discussion - than it hurts Carlson's potential production quite a bit.

Leddy, on the other hand, appears to be a kid coming into his own. He's been handed an opportunity and he's making the best of it. Could he be a flash-in-the-pan? I guess you could say that because he hasn't "proven" anything. But you don't usually get drafted in the 1st round straight out of high school if pro scouts don't see huge upside in your game. Watching Leddy play right now, he looks pretty darn good and you can clearly see his offensive instincts. In terms of his situation, Keith is struggling and Seabrook is banged up. The more Leddy impresses, the more likely the Hawks will continue to reward him with minutes and PP time - because, quite frankly, his game is more suited for that role than Seabrook's is.

At the end of the day, all of this is opinion (in both of our cases). But using the information we know, I think a clear case can be made that Leddy is the better "fantasy" defenseman this year. Long-term, I think we need to see more of both players to fully make an informed opinion. I do know this - and I've said it from day 1 - Carlson is a gifted player with a bright fantasy future...but he would not have nearly the same amount of hype if he were on a team like MIN or FLA. Fantasy GMs seem to pack an extra 10+ points on a player if they play for PIT or WASH - remember Paul Martin last year? He went from NJ to PIT and people automatically thought the cartoon Penguin on his chest would turn him into a 50+ point deJfenseman.

Same hype? No. But to say Carlson's hype of
Washington is crazy IMO. His numbers and history paint this kid as a stud, not
His team

[fungchen3]

You're right. It was an extreme example and a stretch. But. Do this. Compare Carlson's numbers and leddy's. All I'm saying is I don't see any reason to pick Leddy over Carlson.

Ry,

There's nothing to compare here. Both are young players - Carlson is a year older and has a 37 point "career high" season under his belt, while Leddy is just finding his groove. We are not comparing Leddy to Boyle or Visnovsky. John Carlson was outscored last year by Matt Carle, so lets not make him out to be Paul Coffey. I really don't understand the "compare numbers" between these guys. Pre-NHL numbers are worthless - if they counted, Kris Russell would be nipping on the heels of Bobby Orr's records. The only "numbers" that count are the ones they're putting up right now in the NHL. Leddy has Carlson nearly doubled up and he's been extremely consistent to boot. He also appears to be in a better situation to produce offense this season. I keep trying to give you "reasons" to pick Leddy over Carlson this season but you don't put credence in them for some reason lol. Do you disagree that Leddy is in a better situation/role right now? Do you disagree that Leddy looks very impressive? Do you disagree that Leddy is a kid who was drafted because of his great upside and not some career gypsy who is overachieving like Bergeron?

[blayze]

1) Carlosk has better "junior" numbers

2) Carlson has a better NHL career so far

3) Carlson is known as a "big game player" (wjc and AHL championships)


4) I'm yet to see anything that says Leddy is better.

1) Yes he has better junior numbers. You know who else had amazing junior numbers? Alexandre Daigle. Here's a question for you... what's more important... junior numbers or REAL NHL numbers?

2) Based on what? I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. Based on the fact that he's played one more year? How do you define a "better career"? Weak.

3) Who cares if he's a "big game player"? What does that have to do with anything? Do you play in a league that awards fantasy points for being a "big game player"? What does that even mean? Weak.

4) Let's see, how bout the fact that after a quarter of the way through the season - Leddy's 6th in the league in d-man scoring in only his rookie year and Carlson is... one sec I gotta scroll to the next page here... 45th, in his second year.

In a one year I think the answer is clear.

In a keeper, who knows? It's too early to really say, but if I had to choose today, I'd say Leddy. I agree with almost all of Fung Chen's points... Carlson is a better all-round defenseman. That's his game. He doesn't need to be the offensive guy because they have other guys who can do that better than him, and better guys suited for that role emerging.

Carlson may be (probably is) the better overall defenseman, but who gives a shit? Are we playing real hockey here or fantasy hockey? I find a lot of people on this forum have a hard time separating the concepts of fantasy performance and real world performance. I just think some of you guys went way overboard with some very strong, extreme statements based on a comparison for which there is very little body of evidence to draw any strong conclusions.

[bigbabybuda]

I just wanna shout-out to my boy Blayze, bringing some levity to this thread...

This is the funniest thing I ever heard in my life......... blaze is the one starting shit all the time

[His Dudeness]

This is some thread. Maybe we can all agree that they're both great young players and who knows how this will turn out. Maybe we can end this thread, dunno, with a song:

So bye bye Miss American Pie
Drove Carlson to the Leddy but the Leddy was dry
And them good 'ole boys were drinking whiskey and rye singin'
This'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die.

[ridinryan44]

Ry,

There's nothing to compare here. Both are young players - Carlson is a year older and has a 37 point "career high" season under his belt, while Leddy is just finding his groove. We are not comparing Leddy to Boyle or Visnovsky. John Carlson was outscored last year by Matt Carle, so lets not make him out to be Paul Coffey. I really don't understand the "compare numbers" between these guys. Pre-NHL numbers are worthless - if they counted, Kris Russell would be nipping on the heels of Bobby Orr's records. The only "numbers" that count are the ones they're putting up right now in the NHL. Leddy has Carlson nearly doubled up and he's been extremely consistent to boot. He also appears to be in a better situation to produce offense this season. I keep trying to give you "reasons" to pick Leddy over Carlson this season but you don't put credence in them for some reason lol. Do you disagree that Leddy is in a better situation/role right now? Do you disagree that Leddy looks very impressive? Do you disagree that Leddy is a kid who was drafted because of his great upside and not some career gypsy who is overachieving like Bergeron?

I guess. I mean, I can't argue comparing NHL
Numbers to NHL numbers. But personally, pick the high scoring juniors (Kane, stamkos, hall, Tavares, etc) to the guys who don't score as much. I'll assume the top scorers down there will be more likely to score in he NHL. Does that work in every situation? Hell no. But it generally shows you the guys who will continue in their careers as a scorer. I think I'm ****ed I this argument though. I'm trying to do your side ( agreeing Leddy has the same
Upside/potential Carlson does) but no one is reps exiting what Carlson had Dow
In the past, which to me is prove more than Leddy has.


Guys. Leddy could better thanCarlson is. But is they're any way we could agree that that, at the very least, it's up in the air? I feel like I'm the only one willin to give a little here