Giroux/Rinne for Stamkos/Vokoun

[Dutch]

I'm not trying to sound like a jackass but if we're talking about a man crush then ya I'm all for this type of analysis. But if we're talking about analyzing a trade for fantasy hockey purposes then I'll stick to statistics and trends.

Also, I don't see Giroux as a top 10 player. Is he good? YES. Is he elite? Not yet. I put him in the same category/tier as a guy like Kopitar, Tavares or even B. Ryan (although he's a little lower). They show us flashes of greatness but haven't been able to sustain that "elite" level over the course of an entire season.

I won't argue with over you Stammer getting help from his linemates BUT he was chosen #1 overall for a reason. He's an elite talent in every sense of the word.

definitely no man crush here... Just watching the type of players they are.

Stamkos is a one trick pony. Look what happened to previous one trick pony Kovalchuk, and to a lesser extent Ovechkin. Teams figure out how to play against them and shut them down. Stamkos its a matter of time before he gets shut down.

Also, and I realize this is not fantasy related, but on a real NHL team, I think Giroux brings more to the table than Stamkos does. Pts really don't matter all that much. There's PLENTY of once elite players who have disappeared in a matter of seasons (cheechoo) Not saying Stamkos is gonna disappear, but I definitely don't see his 100 pt years continue over his career...

[MT319]

Who in the NHL other than Stamkos has 60G-120 point upside considering this is exactly the pace he played to last season from Oct-Feb and again is on 60G pace out of the gate. I witnessed him hit 2 posts the other night I watch him as well on top of it. I guarantee you on this list of guys with 120 upside, Giroux is not on there. You don't pass up genrational talents like Stamkos with elite all-around skill-set and one of the best skaters a nd literally the best pure shooter in the sport for 90 point Giroux and P.Kane who are plenty good in their own right, but they are not on the same level and have about 20 point lower upsides plus assist-heavy vs. Stamkos G-heavy production meaning htey are more heavily reliant on those around than to produce as opposed to Stamkos.

In regard to Rinne, he is good no doubt, but so is John Quick and did you ever think Rinne playing in a defensive system in NSH has his value inflated becsue of that, sort of like I dunno, maybe Bryzgalov in PHO and Mike Smith in PHO due to this same defensive system vs. when he'd get lit up for 6 a night in TB.

Do you also understand he can make a secondary deal if he doesn't like Vokoun to where he pays Vokoun+ for Quick or whomever it is he wants who is a top 5G in his own right. A couple of you guys are completely out of touch if you seriously advocate Giroux-Rinne is worth even Stamkos straight up in an 8 man league of all places, nevermind Stamkos-Vokoun no less. I would content that Vokoun in FLA 2 seasons ago was easily on the same level as Brodeur and Luongo and Miller along with Vokoun as well, just like 2 seasons from now Markstrom-Bernier-Schneider-Holtby could be best G in the NHL, nevermind Price, Quick, Bryzgalov and guys of this nature. Long story short, Giroux-Rinne is not worth Stamkos even outright in an 8 man league, never mind Stamkos-Vokoun on top of it.

Stamkos-Vokoun easily over Giroux-Rinne...don't be a fool. If you dislike Vokoun so much then trade Vokoun+ for Quick/Price/or and injured Miller all which arguably are and/or will be by the end of the year better than Pekka Rinne for all you know anyway. Stamkos

[Dutch]

Who in the NHL other than Stamkos has 60G-120 point upside considering this is exactly the pace he played to last season from Oct-Feb and again is on 60G pace out of the gate. I witnessed him hit 2 posts the other night I watch him as well on top of it. I guarantee you on this list of guys with 120 upside, Giroux is not on there. You don't pass up genrational talents like Stamkos with elite all-around skill-set and one of the best skaters a nd literally the best pure shooter in the sport for 90 point Giroux and P.Kane who are plenty good in their own right, but they are not on the same level and have about 20 point lower upsides plus assist-heavy vs. Stamkos G-heavy production meaning htey are more heavily reliant on those around than to produce as opposed to Stamkos.

In regard to Rinne, he is good no doubt, but so is John Quick and did you ever think Rinne playing in a defensive system in NSH has his value inflated becsue of that, sort of like I dunno, maybe Bryzgalov in PHO and Mike Smith in PHO due to this same defensive system vs. when he'd get lit up for 6 a night in TB.

Do you also understand he can make a secondary deal if he doesn't like Vokoun to where he pays Vokoun+ for Quick or whomever it is he wants who is a top 5G in his own right. A couple of you guys are completely out of touch if you seriously advocate Giroux-Rinne is worth even Stamkos straight up in an 8 man league of all places, nevermind Stamkos-Vokoun no less. I would content that Vokoun in FLA 2 seasons ago was easily on the same level as Brodeur and Luongo and Miller along with Vokoun as well, just like 2 seasons from now Markstrom-Bernier-Schneider-Holtby could be best G in the NHL, nevermind Price, Quick, Bryzgalov and guys of this nature. Long story short, Giroux-Rinne is not worth Stamkos even outright in an 8 man league, never mind Stamkos-Vokoun on top of it.

Stamkos-Vokoun easily over Giroux-Rinne...don't be a fool. If you dislike Vokoun so much then trade Vokoun+ for Quick/Price/or and injured Miller all which arguably are and/or will be by the end of the year better than Pekka Rinne for all you know anyway. Stamkos

all i can do is laugh at you... You seriously don't know shit... You should probably go back to the HFboards, where you went when you left here cause of whatever crying reason you had... Did they tease you so much that you came back here now?

Seriously dude, where the hell you think Vokoun came from? Also Nashville... And, yes we have a defensive system, but Rinne is elite even without the system. Him and Lundqvist are the best in the league, the rest is not even close. To say Price/Quick?Miller/Vokoun are better than Rinne you are just a big ******o.

Additionally, Stamkos does not have 120 pt upside. Upside is a term that gets tossed around too much here anyway but that's beside the point. He may be the best shooter in the league, but definitely not one that has an all around skillset. If ANYONE is reliant on someone else its Stamkos, and not Giroux (and now you include Kane too? **** dude, stop adding people to the conversation) Without set ups like Stamkos gets he doesn't score 60. Giroux can pass it to the philadelphia stick boy and he can score the goal. Set up men are the ones who make things happen. The scorers get most of the credit, but the elite set up man deserves the credit. That's something you need to realize dude.

Off course anyone can make secondary deals. But they are not discussed... Do you think that if Pittsburgh were to get Ovechkin from Washington for Tyler Kennedy that they could be a dynasty for the next century? Kind of the same stupid logic you seem to possess.

[MT319]

Heh, yea alright bro, whatever you say.

[blayze]

Long story short, Giroux-Rinne is not worth Stamkos even outright in an 8 man league

I usually agree with your views (even though they tend to based on the world through your clouded lens rather than anything objective), but when you make ridiculous statements like this one - even I have to shake my head...

[Vestry]

It depends on who my goalie is. If Rinne is going to be my keeper goalie I like that side if he is not I like the other side...

My goalies are Lundqvist, Rinne, Pavelec, Rask.

Simply the players involved and the categories are not enough to give the best advice. Please provide more information, such as (at least):

- your roster,
- what type of league (h2h, roto),
- how many keepers, and
- your needs (e.g. category focus, win now/later, etc)

However, given the information provided I'd rather Giroux/Rinne because of the importance of strong goaltending (6 of 15 categories are for goalies) and it's a keeper. Who knows how much longer Vokoun will be playing and Rinne will be elite for years. The perceived advantage of Stamkos over Giroux is not enough, in my opinion, to offset the downgrade of Rinne to Vokoun long-term.

Roster is

C: Tavares, Roy, Crosby
LW: Benn, Marchand, Pacioretty, Clowe, Dubinsky, Kulemin, Jordan Staal
RW: Purcell, Parenteau, Hemsky, Vrbata, Hornqvist, Giroux
D: Campbell, Byfuglien, Keith, Carlson, Del Zotto, Timonen, Goligoski, Enstrom

Roto league. 2nd year of 5. 10-11 keepers.
Want to win now.
8 teams.

Without the OP adding any details regarding how many keepers you keep and positions, it's harder to evaluate the true worth of these players.

In an 8 team keeper, I'm guessing that you have to start 2 goalies a day/week. In this case goalies are more valuable as the yearly draft or FA pool is slim as each team will most-likely have at least 3.

But like I said earlier, the Stamkos/Vokoun side will most-likely be better this year and possibly next depending on where Vokoun signs.

With that being said, I am a firm believer that Giroux will hit 100 pts by the end of next season.

Positions are 4 centers, 3 LW, 3 RW, 2 W, 6 D, 2G

[MT319]

My goalies are Lundqvist, Rinne, Pavelec, Rask.



Roster is

C: Tavares, Roy, Crosby
LW: Benn, Marchand, Pacioretty, Clowe, Dubinsky, Kulemin, Jordan Staal
RW: Purcell, Parenteau, Hemsky, Vrbata, Hornqvist, Giroux
D: Campbell, Byfuglien, Keith, Carlson, Del Zotto, Timonen, Goligoski, Enstrom

Roto league. 2nd year of 5. 10-11 keepers.
Want to win now.
8 teams.



Positions are 4 centers, 3 LW, 3 RW, 2 W, 6 D, 2G

Start 4C league and you already have Lundqvist as your other Goalie...yea easily do that swap for Stamkos-Vokoun before that gets taken off the table. Good for you guy.

[iamlilc]

Roster is

C: Tavares, Roy, Crosby
LW: Benn, Marchand, Pacioretty, Clowe, Dubinsky, Kulemin, Jordan Staal
RW: Purcell, Parenteau, Hemsky, Vrbata, Hornqvist, Giroux
D: Campbell, Byfuglien, Keith, Carlson, Del Zotto, Timonen, Goligoski, Enstrom
My goalies are Lundqvist, Rinne, Pavelec, Rask.

Roto league. 2nd year of 5. 10-11 keepers.
Want to win now.
8 teams.

Positions are 4 centers, 3 LW, 3 RW, 2 W, 6 D, 2G

With this new information, I'd go ahead and make this trade. With Lundy on your team as well, it makes it a much easier pill to swallow by losing Rinne.

I've marked the 11 keepers that I would keep and it makes sense to me now and for the near-future.

The only issue I can see that you might have is that next season you will be loaded with C's, especially if Benn is moved there full-time. However, Giroux might get moved to C as well.

It's close, but I think I'd go for the Stamkos/Vokoun side and go for the win.

Good luck.

[horrorfan]

Stamkos bro, don't be a fool.

Stamkos for the 3rd and final time, do not be a fool.

Stamkos-Vokoun easily over Giroux-Rinne...don't be a fool.

Is this really necessary? Yes, you've stated your reasoning several times, and a few of us have a different opinion. Do you really need to be insulting? The truth is, NOBODY KNOWS what will happen in the future, regardless on people's perceived knowledge of these players, their situations, their age, their skating abilities, their shots, their playmaking abilities, etc.

It doesn't matter if one person thinks they know more than others, it's completely irrelevant. Different people have different opinions and give different reasons for these opinions, and the original poster can take these reasonings and make a decision for himself. Calling people fools simply for having a different opinion than you is completely uncalled for.

[blayze]

I can't believe this thread is still alive...

[duducks]

its a good fair trade. With Lundqvist on my team, I'd do it.

Giroux vs Stamkos, i agree with the assessment putting Giroux with Kopitar and Bobby Ryan, and Stamkos is a top 5.

We gotta calm down on what Giroux has done so far this season. We're 20% into the season, and it COULD be just a hot streak. Maybe, maybe not. Look at Pominville in Buffalo, Kessel...some guys are lighting it up now that we all KNOW will cool off. How do we not know Giroux will cool off?

If the trade was Rinne+Ryan for Vokoun+Stamkos, would you do it? Ryan's cold streak is the opposite of Giroux' hot start, so if you wouldnt trade Ryan+Rinne for Vok+Stam, then dont do Giroux.

[MT319]

Is this really necessary? Yes, you've stated your reasoning several times, and a few of us have a different opinion. Do you really need to be insulting? The truth is, NOBODY KNOWS what will happen in the future, regardless on people's perceived knowledge of these players, their situations, their age, their skating abilities, their shots, their playmaking abilities, etc.

It doesn't matter if one person thinks they know more than others, it's completely irrelevant. Different people have different opinions and give different reasons for these opinions, and the original poster can take these reasonings and make a decision for himself. Calling people fools simply for having a different opinion than you is completely uncalled for.

Yes it is actually necessary as you have 8 people telling this guy to pass up what very well could be within 6 months the #1 keeper in the sport, for a high 80's/low 90's assist-heavy producer in an environment without an Elite W talent to slot with vs. a 50+G 95 point scorer, who played to 60G-120+pts from Oct-Feb pace as a 21 year old and is on 60G pace again (without slotting w/ St.Louis EV vast majority of the time on top of it) so yea while you don't recognize it, it actually would be extremely foolish for him to pass up landing Stamkos-Vokoun for Giroux-Rinne in an 8 man league no less and now w/ 4C starting positions and Lundqvist as his other net-minder on top of it. Giroux will be lucky to ever hit 100 points where as Stamkos has already played to that level for 2 years and what will be going on 3 with legit 60G-120 upside on top of it.

The guy made a thread to receive *help with his team*, where as majority of you guys on the otherhand just want to hear yourselves talk instead of actually giving sound in-depth advice to the individual who requested it. Accordingly to state my case strongly about how it would be nothing short of foolish to make this swap seeing how the vast majority of people are attempting to sway otherwise, is whats in his best interest and while you may not appreciate should he heed my advice, in the end he certainly will which is all that matters anyway.

[horrorfan]

Yes it is actually necessary as you have 8 people telling this guy to pass up what very well could be within 6 months the #1 keeper in the sport, for a high 80's/low 90's assist-heavy producer in an environment without an Elite W talent to slot with vs. a 50+G 95 point scorer, who played to 60G-120+pts from Oct-Feb pace as a 21 year old and is on 60G pace again (without slotting w/ St.Louis EV vast majority of the time on top of it) so yea while you don't recognize it, it actually would be extremely foolish for him to pass up landing Stamkos-Vokoun for Giroux-Rinne in an 8 man league no less and now w/ 4C starting positions and Lundqvist as his other net-minder on top of it. Giroux will be lucky to ever hit 100 points where as Stamkos has already played to that level for 2 years and what will be going on 3 with legit 60G-120 upside on top of it.

The guy made a thread to receive *help with his team*, where as majority of you guys on the otherhand just want to hear yourselves talk instead of actually giving sound in-depth advice to the individual who requested it. Accordingly to state my case strongly about how it would be nothing short of foolish to make this swap seeing how the vast majority of people are attempting to sway otherwise, is whats in his best interest and while you may not appreciate should he heed my advice, in the end he certainly will which is all that matters anyway.

Not, it's not necessary to be insulting when other people have different opinions. You can explain your opinion - which you have - and that's fine. You are picking out numbers which are educated guesses that it will continue in the future, so if different people believe differently, it's not 'foolish' for the OP to consider them just because you say so. And please, you don't need to keep trying to prove your point by going in more detail about why Stamkos/Vokoun is the better choice, it's not needed and I'm not going to debate it. Repetition doesn't make your opinion any more the better.

The original posted asked for advice in a public forum - so anyone can answer, regardless of whether you feel your advice is better. Just because your advice is given, doesn't make you right and others wrong. It's in the future - like I said - a lot can change and perhaps your reasoning is sound, perhaps it is not. That's what these forums are for - anyone can give advice without having one person having to constantly bash them because you feel it's not good enough.

It's possible, and perhaps likely that he'll take your advice. Keep in mind that I'm not questioning the quality of your advice (unlike your assumption that I am) - I'm questioning the way you give it by stating that your opinion is the only one that matters and you will criticize those who disagree with you. Let the OP decide whose advice he prefers.

Hear ourselves talk? Yeah, you know me pretty well. Pretty ignorant statement right there.

[Maaaasquito]

Giroux will be lucky to ever hit 100 points where as Stamkos has already played to that level for 2 years and what will be going on 3 with legit 60G-120 upside on top of it.

Hi, it's me trolling again... Stamkos has posted 91 and 95 points respectively, so no he has not already played to that 100-point level. Does he have the potential to do so? Yes, but so does Giroux. For you to say that Stamkos is already there, but Giroux will never get there is a statement of opinion not fact.

Boy I love to hear myself talk sometimes

[MT319]

Horrorfan,

You're nice and all, but you also need to treat this place for exactly what it is. It is a public internet *message board* nothing moire, nothing less...people ask questions, people give answers. It is nothing more than that. Everyone accordingly is *entitled* to give an opinion if they so choose to, but not everyone insight is of equal value despite how much they would like to believe otherwise on their own ends. The quicker, not yourself necessarily, but the vast majority of people on here understand these very simple realities the better off you all will be.

Much as my delivery at times could be more diplomatic when push comes to shove I happen to know what i'm talking about and if anyone else who consistently talks shit and trolls me for 24/7 were actually legitimately secure with what they actually thought on their ends then "trolling me" and "personal attack after personal attack" would serve them no purpose as I do not do the same on my end in regard to the sport. This is a public internet *message board* that revolves around hockey, who the hell cares. People talk shit to me 24/7 but do I care and find this "insulting", no...because in the process while 3rd person parties can interpret it however they please on my end when people state Giroux and Stamkos are on the same level, or Neal needs Malkin to produce at a respectable pace they are only showcasing to me, exactly how little they know on their own ends.

If anyone has a problem with any of the above feel free to block me or lobby to have my account deleted. I don't go out of my way to be insulting, but I also can care less as well as any "insult" I make has to do with talking about the sport, me knowing better than the individual on the other end, and me not valuing what people have to say. Who cares.

If people interpreted this public internet message board for exactly what it is and accepted the fact that, regardless of how much they "dislike" "me" that at the end of the day I still know quite a number of things on my end that most everyone else does not and am very generous with conveying this in the process of giving advice so rather than attempting to troll and belittle me 24/7 like children (again not necessarily yourself) there would be no problems, you might actually learn something on your ends to help you better understand how and why things occur rather than just worry about drawing (often incorrect) assertions off statistics after the fact, and maybe, just maybe come across plenty of amusement in the process along the way just like I do from most of the posters on this site.

If you or anyone affiliated with this place has a problem with any of the above then delete my account as I can really give two shits, but until then I will post whenever and to whatever extent I please on this *public internet message board* and if the majority of you people treated it the same there would be no problems and i'm sure the entertainment value in participating would be a hell of a lot higher on your ends.

"Personal relationships" are for *real life*, not public internet message boards. The internet is nothing more than a platform for conveying information for either entertainment or informative purposes and this is all I post on this board to do, apparently unlike the rest of the people trying to make a *public internet message board* into something more than it actually is and there would be no problems if the vast majority of you functioned the same and interpreted this again *public internet message board* for exactly what it is. I know this concept is very difficult for many of you to grasp however and that of course it is me and not the other way around who is out of touch. I understand, no big deal.