Malkin?

[Calimero]

Not to be adversarial again but with offers like that Id find it hard to consider trading a viable route to bettering your team in that league. Those arent just bad offers for Malkin- they are just plain bad. There is literally no format/scenario where anyone would ever consider those. To me thats less a reflection of Malkins value and moreso a reflection of the other gms stinginess/uninformedness/or ineptitude when it comes to structuring meaningful trade offers. The AK one must have been a joke and the Richards one was obviously trying to fleece you.

To each their own but to me Malkin warrants a better return tha Giroux/Yandle at this point.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of trades happened in that league. Just not with Malkin. Like I said, pretty much every GM in this league lost faith in him. Hence, the ridiculous offers. I mean, how can you blame them? Geno hasn't shown anything in the previous years that would indicate that they are wrong.

[Calimero]

Would you trade him for Ryan/Burns? Staal/Letang? I would be giving Malkin/Carlsson.

Ryan/Burns? No, where are the 85+ points forward and 55+ points defenseman here?

Staal (Eric, I suppose)/Letang? This one I would consider it!

But only for Malkin, I would not give another defenseman with him.

[Fighting_Emu]

Ryan/Burns? No, where are the 85+ points forward and 55+ points defenseman here?

Staal (Eric, I suppose)/Letang? This one I would consider it!

But only for Malkin, I would not give another defenseman with him.

This absolutely begs the question:

Wheres the 85 point forward in the Giroux/Yandle offer?

Giroux and Ryan had very similar statlines last year.

Giroux 25 g, 76 points, 47 pims,169 sogs
Ryan 34 g, 71 points, 61 pims, 270 sogs

The edge here goes to Ryan in a big way due to the goal and sog bonus unless its points only. You have to consider linemates too. I personally consider Perry/Getzlaf a pretty nice edge over Briere/Jagr.

Yandle- 11 g, 59 points, 68 pims, 199 sogs
Burns- 17 g, 46 points, 98 pims, and 170 sogs

Actually more comprable than I imagined. Factor in Burns great new team situation and I think its safe to add 5 or so more points on the conservative end, taper down Yandles as it will be impossible to duplicate those numbers on a scrap heap Phoenix squad- by 5 or so points and you have 54 and 51 respectively. If its a roto format Burns will likely get a decent edge in pims, +/- and goals as well.

In a points only format Id give a slight edge to Giroux/Yandle. In any category or roto format Im giving the edge to Ryan/Burns. I think Lentrix did a great job of creating a reasonable facsimile of the trade you were looking for.

[lektrix]

This absolutely begs the question:

Wheres the 85 point forward in the Giroux/Yandle offer?

Giroux and Ryan had very similar statlines last year.

Giroux 25 g, 76 points, 47 pims,169 sogs
Ryan 34 g, 71 points, 61 pims, 270 sogs

The edge here goes to Ryan in a big way due to the goal and sog bonus unless its points only. You have to consider linemates too. I personally consider Perry/Getzlaf a pretty nice edge over Briere/Jagr.

Yandle- 11 g, 59 points, 68 pims, 199 sogs
Burns- 17 g, 46 points, 98 pims, and 170 sogs

Actually more comprable than I imagined. Factor in Burns great new team situation and I think its safe to add 5 or so more points on the conservative end, taper down Yandles as it will be impossible to duplicate those numbers on a scrap heap Phoenix squad- by 5 or so points and you have 54 and 51 respectively. If its a roto format Burns will likely get a decent edge in pims, +/- and goals as well.

In a points only format Id give a slight edge to Giroux/Yandle. In any category or roto format Im giving the edge to Ryan/Burns. I think Lentrix did a great job of creating a reasonable facsimile of the trade you were looking for.

I like your analysis.

So then, would you take any of those deals?

Ryan/Burns, Staal/Letang, possibly even Ryan/Letang...for Malkin + one of Carlsson, White, Mueller or Weiss (I'd be asked to give one of them up since I'd have to drop one anyways).

[Fighting_Emu]

See thats the thing- I still dont think I would.

That being said- its because I believe Gino will bounce back and be a dominant player.

If I didnt believe he could regain his form and that injuries have changed him- Id jump all over Ryan/Letang.

To be honest Letang/Ryan might be enough even now. Like i said im stubborn with supertsars- but Ryan is a very solid winger and Letang looks like he might be someting special- a more complete version of what we all thought Mike Green was two years ago. In your case throwing in White would be no issue as you have Letang replacing him- Id keep Carlson.

So I guess Im waffling here- but Letang/Ryan would make me think- more so than Giroux/Yandle...

[Calimero]

Fighting_Emu, I guess it's just preference. I prefer Giroux over Ryan by quite a bit. I find that his progression has been more impressive than Ryan. I have no doubt that Giroux will hit 85-90 points this year (barring injuries, of course). I'm not so sure about Ryan, he always seem to be the odd man out on that first line in Anaheim (meaning he often gets shipped on the second line).

[lektrix]

Promise you it's my last question.

How about Ovechkin, Pavelec for Malkin, Quick?

Would you gamble for the #1 pick and sacrifice goaltending?

(Fleury, Quick, Conklin, Biron are my starting goalies in the standard roto league)

[Fighting_Emu]

I hear ya- its all about preference.

I have my doubts he will significantly more than 80 this year. Its been proven time and again that offensive depth doesnt usually translate well to fanmtasy numbers. There are so many great options in Philly that by default Giroux will see less icetime and more importantly more pp time than he would on a team with less depth.

Conversely Ryan is in pretty much the perfect scenario- zero depth after the big three- and with Sellanne scaling back his importance to the team should even see more special pp minutes than he did last year. Id argue the other side of the coin as well for the odd man out theory and say its pretty impressive that he managed comparable totals to Giroux spending half his time with players like Saku Koivu and Jason Blake.

Lastly the most telling stat for me is sogs. High sog guys seem to consistently produce despite linemates and have better chances at high goal totals which is the bread and butter of most leagues. The 100 shot differential between them is a pretty significant one.

Both great players- Id be happy to own either- but Im just not seeing a big gap between them...

[Fighting_Emu]

Promise you it's my last question.

How about Ovechkin, Pavelec for Malkin, Quick?

Would you gamble for the #1 pick and sacrifice goaltending?

(Fleury, Quick, Conklin, Biron are my starting goalies in the standard roto league)

Is Malkin C/RW in your format? Standard cats- G, A, Pts, Pims, +/-, sog?

I actually really dont like this off the top of my head. AO is a beast for sogs and should have a bounceback year, but Malkin could easily pace him or better him in most other categories- especially points. Pavelec is a major step down as the jets will be in tough to win games this year and you dont have a lot of depth behind Fleury either. The fact that you have 4 gs means theres likely no real options on the waiver wire either. Thats a big price to pay for what could be a wash or even a loss up front.

I think the best move here is no move. Pens play tomorrow- lets see if malkins in the lineup...

[blayze]

I own Malkin in my keeper league and I owned Malkin in one of my one year H2H leagues last year and drafted him again this year. I'm well aware of the history. I have been playing it cool until I have information to base a decision on. I'm not gonna trade Geno Malkin for whatever I can get right now. His value is so low that I wouldn't get a good return even if I thought that was a good idea.

That is my approach. Right now, the only info we have is people on Dobber panicking and a bunch of what ifs from the media.... Not enough to base a decision on in my opinion.

Fair enough, it sounds like we have different approaches.

In a keeper league I'm with you all the way... Malkin is far too valuable to gamble on this early.

But in a one year league, I would not hesitate deal him right now. You seem to think his value is low right now, but I think his value is very high relative to what it will be if it's disclosed that he does indeed have some kind of nagging knee injury.

Nobody has any inside info on this forum, people just have different approaches... you prefer to wait and see for more info, but like the stock market, if you wait and see you'll get the same info that everyone else gets, and if that info is bad (ie: bum knee), then it'll be too little too late and your stock will significantly drop.

I followed Malkin very closely last year, as you did as well I'm sure, so we're both acutely aware of the history here, and it is my belief, based solely on Malkin's absensce and how Balysma seems to be suspiciously framing it, that there is a decent chance this will be a recurrence of last year, and in that spirit, I think it's a gutsy but well calculated move to deal him before the news officially drops.

We'll see what happens, could go either way.

As for the two pages of posts before this, I think you've gotta be smoking some strong shit if you don't believe Girioux + Yandle is not an offer at least seriously worth considering in exchange for Malkin at this point.

PS: As for the person who gave me negative rep for sharing my "short sighted" views, at least have the balls to post your user name in addition to a well reasoned rebuttal rather than anonymously attacking my forum rep. It's a public forum for people to share their views for a reason... you may not agree with everyones views but as long as they're not destroying the community I think there's hardly reason to be dishing out negative rep.

[Fighting_Emu]

As for the two pages of posts before this, I think you've gotta be smoking some strong shit if you don't believe Girioux + Yandle is not an offer at least seriously worth considering in exchange for Malkin at this point.

Really??? What format? Whats cats? Points only? Keepers/ How many? Whose the player you drop?

This is kind of dumb without any specifics but Im not on any good shit and i would have no problem rejecting this in many formats. Roto- Malkin as a RW with faceoffs, more goals and about 200 more sogs- Giroux isnt stacking up well here. Ill re-itererate for the record- I have not touched Yandle with a ten foot pole in any draft this year- he is all but guaranteed to take a sizable step back this year, there is a good chance after the trad deadline when Doan/Whitney go (not exactly superstars in their own right to begin with)- he will be manning the top pp with Langkow, Vrbata and... Korpikowski???

So yes pass- absolutely and even when Im on the good shit- angel dust, pcp and crack...

[blayze]

Really??? What format? Whats cats? Points only? Keepers/ How many? Whose the player you drop?

This is kind of dumb without any specifics but Im not on any good shit and i would have no problem rejecting this in many formats. Roto- Malkin as a RW with faceoffs, more goals and about 200 more sogs- Giroux isnt stacking up well here. Ill re-itererate for the record- I have not touched Yandle with a ten foot pole in any draft this year- he is all but guaranteed to take a sizable step back this year, there is a good chance after the trad deadline when Doan/Whitney go (not exactly superstars in their own right to begin with)- he will be manning the top pp with Langkow, Vrbata and... Korpikowski???

So yes pass- absolutely and even when Im on the good shit- angel dust, pcp and crack...

You seem to be forgetting the whole point of this debate... we're not debating how amazing Malkin is if he's at 100%... this is a Malkin injury thread in case you had failed to notice.

How many faceoffs, goals and SOGs will Malkin take this year if he's injured? How does that stack up against Giroux and Yandle, who are both rising stars with no injury history?

And to say that Yandle will take a "sizable step back is all but guaranteed" is a little far fetched... I don't think your gut instinct quite passes as a guarantee around here.

[GrinningBuddha]

While I'm enjoying the analysis, it might be best to create a new thread in the appropriate forum to debate Malkin's value and keep this thread for any updates on his injury, IMO.

[Fighting_Emu]

You seem to be forgetting the whole point of this debate... we're not debating how amazing Malkin is if he's at 100%... this is a Malkin injury thread in case you had failed to notice.

How many faceoffs, goals and SOGs will Malkin take this year if he's injured? How does that stack up against Giroux and Yandle, who are both rising stars with no injury history?

And to say that Yandle will take a "sizable step back is all but guaranteed" is a little far fetched... I don't think your gut instinct quite passes as a guarantee around here.

Ok well i thought that was the debate- so far weve been told its nothing serious with Malkin, not related to his knee and is most likely a bruised foot from an errant shot in warm up. If thats the case than I dont like that deal. I believe thats the case. I could be wrong but thats what Im going on.

Its a little more than "gut feeling" with Yandle. D-men specifically those that amass a large chunk of their points on the powerplay- perhaps more than any other player- depend on an effective powerplay unit and linemates. Im seeing a huge step backwards there. So I guess you could just chalk up my opinion on Yandle as "gut feeling" in which case id re-iterate that Giroux is still a 70 point player. His upside is nothing more than a collective gut feeling. I think wed be limiting ourselves as poolies if we didnt allow oursleves some researched, interpretative variation on our projections of players from the year before.

I am assuming malkin is healthy.

I am assuming Yandle will struggle with Langkow as his top unit center.

I am assuming that Girouxs step forward - at least for this year-will be smaller than moston these boards seem to think- based on his low sogs and the offensive depth in Philly. I am assuming he is an 80 point player and not pencilling him for 95.

Based on these assumptions "I" would not consider this particular trade for malkin who I assume can win the scoring title this year.

[Fighting_Emu]

While I'm enjoying the analysis, it might be best to create a new thread in the appropriate forum to debate Malkin's value and keep this thread for any updates on his injury, IMO.

Good point- going to bed though- have to continue tomorrow- lol...