Harding Starter Talent?

[mapletreemarty]

Yea, his injury history is pretty bad. Dallas took a gamble on Lehtonen, but you don't see many teams seek out an injury prone starter.

*cough* Colorado *cough*

As an Avs fan, I meant to say go Avs go

[Jason_Banks]

Dude...Vokoun? lol. I know he's not under the age of 35 but a team like NJ probably isn't looking for a long-term fix through FA...if they're looking for a long-term fix they'll have to pay up through trade.

I also think you're selling Montoya a little short there...I would much rather have him for sure over Leclaire...I think that ship has sailed. Still left to be seen if Emery and Harding can get it going.

Well after losing a goalie thats been in the organization for 20 years they need a long term goalie some where... and Kinkaid/Frazee aren't that yet.... And I did mention they could chase one Via trade. After this season will you still have faith in Vokoun as a starter? He's turning into a 1A goalie only playing 50 or less games a year.

Also I'm selling Montoya VERY short... if you know his history, its very extensive with injuries in the AHL... he has only played 50 games in a season once in his whole career as a goalie and he only played 55 games inculding playoffs that season... also if you have seen him on a regular basis he is very inconsistant, somethin he has been fighting majory since he left Michigan... I've seen him play a few times as a Rampage goaltender, Live and you see a different goalie every time he is in the crease... He had a great run with the Islanders, credit to that, but he was running on Adreneline as was the whole team that last part of the season. And 20 NHL games does not prove to me he can be an NHL starter... much the same as James Reimer, who I've seen play 20+ AHL games and a few NHL games Live... I can point out more faults in Reimer than positives... (that said I do really like Reimer, but I'm currently not sold he is a Starter at the NHL level but very comfortable with him as a backup)

When I'm talking 'Starter' I'm expecting a goalie to play 60+ games a season... 1A/1B is a goalie that plays 59 or less but more than 35.... So no dont see Vokoun playing 60 games in Washington this year nor ever again... and I never see Montoya hitting that mark...

And eric I admit that talent pool is very uninspiring, but the guy was asking about Harding as Starter Talent and I handy capped the list and situations as they can relate to Josh... I will agree lots have been more durable and just as proven... but I only put a couple on the list of Upside to Josh... As far as Upside I don't see the market as flooded... If your looking at guys that can play and fill NHL rolls other than undisputed starter.... that market has been flooded every year since the early 90s...

[bondon]

Well after losing a goalie thats been in the organization for 20 years they need a long term goalie some where... and Kinkaid/Frazee aren't that yet.... And I did mention they could chase one Via trade. After this season will you still have faith in Vokoun as a starter? He's turning into a 1A goalie only playing 50 or less games a year.

When I'm talking 'Starter' I'm expecting a goalie to play 60+ games a season... 1A/1B is a goalie that plays 59 or less but more than 35.... So no dont see Vokoun playing 60 games in Washington this year nor ever again... and I never see Montoya hitting that mark...

Well I'll take your assessment of Montoya at face value since I haven't followed his career up until now, and you do make a good point that 20 games is too small a sample size. That being said I would still much rather have Montoya over Leclaire.

Most else I completely disagree with.
1) Yes of course I have faith in Vokoun after this season. He's 35 not 60. Look at Roloson trucking along at 42 and you're telling me Vokoun is done as a starter at 35? Come on lets be serious. How does he suddenly drop off to less than 50 games a year?

2) NJ does not HAVE to address their goaltending for a long-term fix. While it would be nice for them to acquire a guy like Schneider or Bernier, there's nothing wrong with them running with short-term fixes until its feasible for them to address their goal-tending long term. It has to make sense for them. As some have mentioned in other threads, Brodeur is not necessarily 100% finished either. Until he officially calls it quits there really is no reason to assume that he's done after this season, it could be a couple of one year deals after this season, only time will tell with respect to that.

3) I think my main problem and overall issue with your post is that you are saying that playing fewer than 60 games automatically makes you a 1A option. Tim Thomas played 57 games (started 55), Halak played 55 games, Backstrom played 51...does that mean any of these three starters are not #1 goaltenders?

Yes, Halak was injured for a portion of the season, Backstrom was injured for a small portion as well. But that's my whole point. Number of games played does not determine whether or not you're considered a #1 goaltender, it depends on your skill level and opportunity.

Even by using your system that a goalie that starts 60 games or more, Vokoun is exactly that.
Last season - 57 GS and he missed 4 games due to injury
09/10 - 62 GS and that was even with missing 2 games due to Keith Ballard two-handing him in the side of the head
08/09 - 55 GS, missed 3 due to injury (okay he played fewer than 60)
07/08 - 69 GS
06/07 - 44 GS while missing 20+ games due to injury
05/06 - 60 GS

You get the picture.

In any case, I've completely swerved off topic now. I hear you that perhaps there is a team out there that could take a shot at Harding, I mean who thought Florida would sign Theodore to be a #1 (even if its just for a year).

I don't see it happening though.

[Jason_Banks]

Ok yea i could see where you see the 60 Hard games is a bit of a classification... I include Playoff games in that so Thomas actually played 82 games last season...

But what I mean is in a perfect healthy season The starter should see 55-60 regular season games... and will likely see the 1st round of the playoff...

Current Goalies I classify as starters: Ward, Price, Lehtonen, Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Miller, Fleury, Rinne, Howard, Luongo, Niemi, Pavelec, Halak, Crawford, Steve Mason, Hiller, DiPietro (injury history aside he can eat 8 of 10 games), Then guys that are falling off and losing this status: Brodeur, Kipper, Backstrom, Thomas, Vokoun, Rolo... Guys that are showing ability to be legit starters: Bobrovsky, Neuvirth, Dubnyk, Rask, Varlamov... Outside prospects Bernier, Schnieder, Reimer, Lehner ect, I consider everyone else 1A/B or Backups...

Just because you get an injury and play less games I dont feel that makes you less than a Starter... Didn't think you'd take that as a full hard Cap tho, I should have clarified more my expectations of Starter Classification.

As far as Vokoun, in Washington Neuvirth will see 25-30 or more games and as far as who will be the defind starter by playoff time... it very well could be Neuvirth... Vokoun has been given the oppertunity to start the year as the main guy, that can be easily taken. Rolo started the season as a backup to Rick DiPietro (which isnt a bad gig if you want games) the fact he took over, wasn't exactly seen in Projections relating to fantasy... Tim Thomas went on a huge Roll at the start of the year to take back his starting role from Rask... Goalies are not done at 35, but thier rolls tend to change at 35/shortly after...

Brodeur talked during last season about his body breaking down and it being tougher to stay healthy and get physically prepared, also the drop of in his play makes me and lots of others feel that he will call it after his 20th season of pro. He has done all he can as a goalie, and will want to finish on his terms near the top. And my opinion if we wanna project to next year, I feel he will be in the NHL offices in some capacity. He could be igning 1 year contracts... But I think he would rather step a way with New Jersey having some stability/a plan going forward. 2-3 years ago I figured they were gonna want him to work with and groom a younger prospect to ease his departure, but they let Danis go after he played awesome, Hedberg was signed to a couple dumb contracts anf Frazee hasn't progressed strongly enough...

Going back from 92-82 (pre-Brodeur era), New Jersey only used 3 goalies... and each ran into each others succession, Sean Burke (4 yrs), Alain Chevrier (3 yrs) and Chico Resch (4 yrs), so New Jersey from a fantasy standpoint is a pretty stable place to have a starter, and once Brodeur is gone (I feel after this season) it will continue to work out that way.

Montoya vs. Leclaire -
Skill Level - Leclaire > Montoya
Durability - Leclaire = Montoya (maybe slight advantage since Leclaire has has more surgury)
Starting Potential - Leclaire > Montoya
Ability to fill realistic expectations - Montoya > Leclaire
NHL Career outlook - Montoya > Leclaire
The last two points is where I hope your wanting Montoya over Leclaire, any expectations on Leclaire are either that he will play 20 or less games due to injury or that he will regain Elite form from 07/08 (last season in Ottawa he showed he still has that level and was the best player on the team at the season start for 10+ games), there is no middle ground... where as Montoya is breaking in and is just expected to be a decent non starting option for 20ish games..

Yea we've swerved off topic, but we are creating some good conversation and great debate on a few good Fantasy issues, And can strech to say these do relate to Harding and he either fits into roles of in similer brackets to players we are discussing...