Strange Scenario in Our League..... Input would be helpful

[sportsmaster4vr]

Ill try to shorten this story as much as possible but i will provide all the major details.

Originally I did a trade with a manager who we will call Kasey. Another manager who we will call Arnold on the same day did a similar trade with Kasey. The two deals were

Mine: My first round pick for Loui Eriksson, Toby Enstrom, James Neal

Other Manager (Arnold): His 2nd round pick for Ryan Kesler and Dustin Brown.

There was a catch in the deal that Kasey wanted. He wanted the option in both deals to potentially get eriksson or kesler back for a 10th rounder in the offseason if he pleased. Well basically what it does is it ties you down to those players for the rest of the year..... basically not being able to trade them. At the time we didnt see anything wrong with it so we accepted. Well about a week later a different manager went out and acquired Price and Heatley from a different manager with the intention of giving them back in the offseason.

Well obviously as you can see the streamline of Renting players is starting to occur because of the original deals done earlier in the week. This was definitely something none of us wanted so me arnold and kasey got together to figure out a solution to remove the rights that Kasey had on our players (eriksson and kesler). We all agreed that me and arnold would each gives kasey an 8th round pick removing the rights he had on the players so they wouldnt go back to him in the off season and they would be our property.

On a side note i also enforced a rule where the only conditions that can be placed on a trade are performance based conditions only on draft picks. (I.e. If the team reaches the finals the 3rd rounder turns into a 2nd, etc)

Well a couple days ago i got an offer a 5th round pick for eriksson. I cant fit eriksson on the roster of 5 keepers so i took the deal. Kasey claimed the deal should be vetoed because the players cannot be traded or kept as a keeper. He said there are still restrictions from the original deal......

So im wondering why i sent the 8th rounder to him???.... He claims the 8th rounder was that the player would not be sent back to his team in the offseason but thet the condition of not being able to trade him was still in play. Im just wondering how does that make any sense??? The whole point of giving up the 8th to make sure renting players would not occur. It was to give him some extra compensation since he would not have the option to choose his keepers between what he had and either kesler and eriksson.

Now why would i send an 8th round pick to him if i was still restricted of not being able to move him. I mean i would have just done the original deal of the first rounder for eriksson to begin with and just kept eriksson on the bench for the offseason and saved myself a pick. He basically just wants the chance to redraft kesler and eriksson in the draft. I learned that first hand tonight from another manager.

Just wondering what people think of this?

To me his argument doesnt make sense corresponding with the pick i sent him. Why would i give him an 8th round pick if the player was just gonna sulk on the bench anyways. We should have just done the original deal and taken out the option to give him back in the offseason if he wanted the chance to redraft both players.

Am i seeing something wrong??? it just doesnt add up.

[GoHabsGo]

Man. That's just messed up.

I would agree with you. The pick moved was to allow the player not to go back to the original team. Of course he had a chance to re-draft him, since you were not going to protect him, but anyone could have drafted him before him. So I don't undertsand why the trade of Eriksson for a 5th rounder should be vetoed. - Because him might not draft him? He already had that.

The league that I'm in doesn't allow rental players. The commish installed a rule of couple of years ago to not allow a player to be traded back to your team unless it's been over 12 months since you had him last. Of course, you could draft him, pick him up off of waivers or sign him as a free agent.

[Shoeless]

His acceptance of those 8th round picks should have voided the rental understanding, in my mind.

But I kinda think you kinda messed up as commissioner when you didn't nip this thing with a ruling the moment you received or got involved in the deal.

[ridinryan44]

Shoeless is right, but it sounds like you did a good job To clean up the mess. Live and learn. Kasey has no grounds to stand on, IMO. Once that 8th round Pick was sent (kasey should consider himself lucky) unless he were to state at the time, and have you agree, to keep those conditions on, they should no longer bE there. Why this guy even cares is beyond me. Sounds like he's trying to rain on someone else's party. Not cool.

[Thieving Giraffe]

His acceptance of those 8th round picks should have voided the rental understanding, in my mind.

But I kinda think you kinda messed up as commissioner when you didn't nip this thing with a ruling the moment you received or got involved in the deal.

Agreed on both counts. These things tend to get messy. But "Kasey" is clearly trying to have things both ways. I would check your earlier correspondence, if you have any. Might give you something to point to, to reduce the conflict. I've always believed in keeping a record for everything transactional in my leagues... comes in handy in situations like this one.

[Hockey Hoser]

Some good advice on how to play this situation. Also remember you have "Arnold" as a resource to back you up with your claim. The tough part about this deal is the fact you're also commissioner. Be careful not to seem as if abusing your "positional power" to get what you want. My feeling is that if "Kasey" has the boldness to try to kibosh your deal involving Eriksson, he will probably try to spin this story in his favour one way or another. I would suggest now bringing this issue to the league and have a league wide vote on how to handle the situation and regardless of the outcome, stick to the results. As Commissioner though you can create the options for the other GMs to vote for which can also help you make things right in your league. Make the options simple. I feel your integrity is being put to the test so it's time for you to prove to the other owners you're capable. Best of luck!

[sportsmaster4vr]

Ill give an update and solution to the problem the league had.

Basically a couple days after i posted this "Kasey" said he didnt care about eriksson getting traded but he cared about kesler.......and that he didnt want kesler moving because he wanted the chance to redraft him. If everything worked out for him he would have the number 5 pick in our draft (our lottery is not until August).

Well i learned he had an agreement with a manager who would have both the number 2 and 3 selections and the agreement was the manager would pass on kesler allowing Kasey to have a good opportunity to redraft him. So basically this was all planned.

I think like most commisioners they will the put the league ahead of themselves and this was clearly a situation where i did not want to abuse being head of the league. While he did say it was ok for me to move eriksson it wouldnt be right. Both eriksson and kesler are in the same situation so both should have the same fate whether it is being traded or just stashed on the bench. I gave both Kasey and Arnold 3 full days to work something out and negotiate a deal for kesler and if nothing could be worked out then the league of the other 9 managers (excluding myself, arnold and kasey) would vote on the issue of

1. Eriksson and Kesler can be traded, and Kasey keeps both 8th round picks

or

2. Eriksson and Kesler cannot be traded by me or Arnold but that both 8ths would be returned.

Kasey is known as a very stubborn manager who does not like to solve problems where everyone is satisfied. he avoids confrontations and really tries to avoid the problem hoping it goes away and favours him in the end so i had to do something to get this worked out fast. Even though he is a close friend based on past experiences he really only wants to please himself and wont take one for the team. There was a case last year where he tried to trade his 5th keeper position for a draft pick which is not allowed. Then there was confusion on who actually owned semin because him and another manager did a trade and apparently traded back because trading keeper selections was not allowed and they both submitted Semin as a keeper. While i told him to work things out and figure out a solution with the other manager he didnt want to. I basically offered him a deal or i would have to step in another way that he may not like. What i had to do was offer him a supplmentary pick which was 25th overall in our draft (end of the 2nd round) while he only got to keep 4 guys while everyone else kept 5. I hate making special conclusions for people and this will be the second time something like this has happened with him.

I mean Arnold offered him kesler back within the 3 days for a 5th and an 8th round pick to solve the problem and he rejected because then he would have 6 players to keep with only 5 spots. And the 5th and 8th would get you someone like Andy Mcdonald and Kimmo Timonen so nothing close to the value that kesler is worth. I gave him time to negotiate and if not then for the league to vote.

He clearly did not want any of these scenarios so he just told both of us to do what we wanted for eriksson and kesler. Well arnold got what he wanted which was to keep kesler. While i could move eriksson for a 5th i decided to take one for the team and meet Kasey half way and just stash him on my bench for the offseason. He shouldnt be the only manager to lose out in this scenario. I just hope he remembers this if something arises in the future.

But yeah that was the whole problem that got solved. Definitely tricky pleasing everyone when scenarios like this arise. Basically what ive learned is removing stupid conditions from trades needs to be done in serious leagues because thats what led to this whole debacle.

[Pengwin7]

The concept of renting players is just bad, bad, bad.

Add Rule: Any player traded off your roster can not make his way back to your roster for a period of two years from the trade date. (Edit: Except by start-of-year replacement draft)

[Vancityguy]

Yup this storyline is a good one for new or prospective Commish's/Leagues. Stay away from rental/leasing of players. We had this happen in our league as well, and of course once one trade happens, 10 happen and the integrity of the league and competition is shot.

We of course banned rental/leasing of players right away and nothing outside of players/picks can be in a trade now. No wink wink deals, loss of draft picks now if it's found out anyone's done so.

[Thieving Giraffe]

Add Rule: Any player traded off your roster can not make his way back to your roster for a period of two years from the trade date. (Edit: Except by start-of-year replacement draft)

Not sure I'd go that far, but certainly I would say no re-acquisition agreements or NTCs.

[Nehithaw]

Ill give an update and solution to the problem the league had.

Well i learned he had an agreement with a manager who would have both the number 2 and 3 selections and the agreement was the manager would pass on kesler allowing Kasey to have a good opportunity to redraft him. So basically this was all planned.

Definition from Merriam-Webster:

COLLUSION: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

[ove_is_god8]

i feel sorry for the guy who lost out on erikson! i guess he has to try to draft him

[asv27]

This is why leagues w/ friends can be a pain in the ass. He is clearly in violation of collusion and seems to have been a pain in the ass for a while now. If he wasn't your friend I'd just replace him and be done with it, but he is so it's tough.

IMO, there should def be some penalty to him and the GM who agreed to pass on Kessler for collusion and set some hard rules on deals like this.

[ove_is_god8]

one of the gms was going to trade a mid round pick for kesler and then turn it around and trade kelser to another gm for a first

[Mind of Milbury]

Interesting story for sure--a cautionary if ever there was one. My solution would be a simple rule amendment. Obviously there was some monkey-see, monkey-do effect at play with that later Price/Heatley deal. One way to deter this type of activity without outawing it altogether would be to make it mandatory the compensation to "unrent" the player (Kesler and Eriksson in the example) equal to a draft pick the same round the player was originally drafted, plus either a round higher or lower to boot. So, if for instance Kesler was originally a 3rd round pick, Kasey would absolutely be able to reacquire him, but he'd be stuck sending OP a 3rd AND either a 2nd or 4th (depending on how sadistic and punitive you want to be). As an added kicker, make it so the picks have to be the teams' original choices (similar to NHL RFA offer sheet rules).

You *could* run into trouble down the road if someone who takes RNH in a prospects type draft, and he becomes the best in the game, what would compensation be? Two picks in a prospect draft? Or does it become actual draft picks of established players...
It is for this reason you make it somewhat cost-prohibitive to add these types of agreements to deals--too much of a pain to clean up after the fact.