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Thread: Ben Bishop: 15th ranked in top-50

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobber View Post
    The D rankings get the least time, because I basically just pull them from the overall rankings and then I review numbers 80 to 120 to move out some losers manually, and put in some winners. That's it.

    The goalie rankings I love. I think I do a good job and put a lot of time in it. Goalies are the biggest movers because they go boom to bust and back to boom again so easily.

    This particular rankings I did something a little different - I imported my projections from the Guide into them. It really shed light on things. The Bishop one was the big one. But either I believe in my Guide or I don't.

    In the case of Bishop, in keeping with my standard logic of using +/- 5.0 rating points, Bishop is actually rated between 90.0 and 100.0. So his ranking is actually between 9th and 22nd, depending on your mood, situation, needs and risk. I'm pretty happy with that range.

    But Bishop is by no means a secure ranking. While a Lundquist could sit in the Top 5 even if he starts the season 0-12...Bishop could be 30th by the end of training camp. The unproven guys are more volatile. I try to measure that within the rankings, but it's tough.
    So, it's basically a mix of their upside / situation / projection? Sounds good to me; thanks for the clarification.
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    I just came into this forum to start the exact same thread. I was blown away when I saw Bishop at 15. This is a guy who lost his starting job to a 19 year while playing for Team USA at the World Championships. Stevie Y has also already gone on record stating that he and Lindback will be platooning starts to start the season until a clear #1 emerges. So a 1A goalie is #15? Also, Bishop is now on his 3rd team in as many years. Not a good sign.

    IMO Lindback was thrown under the bus in TB last season. They had/have an atrocious D and I think a lot of young goalies would have faltered in a similar situation, regardless of their talent level. Had Lindback not gotten injured I doubt Bishop would have been brought in. Lindback was on fire before he got injured. Check out his numbers from his last 5 games before the injury:

    March 18 - Win, GAA = 2.01, SV% = .933 (30 Saves)
    March 14 - L, GAA - 1.01, SV% - .964 (28 Saves)
    March 12 - W, GAA = 2.00, SV% = .949 (39 Saves)
    March 7 - L, GAA = 2.06, GAA = .929 (28 Saves)
    March 5 - W, GAA - 2.00, SV% = .926 (27 Saves)

    I’m not drinking the Kool-Aid that Bishop is somehow the saviour in TB and guaranteed #1 and frankly I don’t understand why so many people do. He has been good in short stints but has yet to put a full season of solid numbers together, yet everyone assumes he will be able to do so in TB. My money is on Lindback to run away with the starting job. He was under the tutelage of Mitch Korn, arguably the best goalie coach in the NHL, while in Nashville. Plus he had Pekka Rinne as his mentor for 2 years. Huge advantage. But that’s just me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    Bishop was traded because he couldn't make the top two in ST.L, then traded again because he couldn't make the top 2 in Ottawa.
    He was traded from both of those clubs because both of them had very good goalie duos. In fact, at the time he was traded from each club, both of those teams had arguably the best goalie tandems in the league. You make it sound like he got traded because he couldn't hack it in the NHL and the teams were trading him because they were giving up on him. How are you going to blame the fact that he couldn't stay with either of those teams on his ability?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobber View Post
    The D rankings get the least time, because I basically just pull them from the overall rankings and then I review numbers 80 to 120 to move out some losers manually, and put in some winners. That's it.

    The goalie rankings I love. I think I do a good job and put a lot of time in it. Goalies are the biggest movers because they go boom to bust and back to boom again so easily.

    This particular rankings I did something a little different - I imported my projections from the Guide into them. It really shed light on things. The Bishop one was the big one. But either I believe in my Guide or I don't.

    In the case of Bishop, in keeping with my standard logic of using +/- 5.0 rating points, Bishop is actually rated between 90.0 and 100.0. So his ranking is actually between 9th and 22nd, depending on your mood, situation, needs and risk. I'm pretty happy with that range.

    But Bishop is by no means a secure ranking. While a Lundquist could sit in the Top 5 even if he starts the season 0-12...Bishop could be 30th by the end of training camp. The unproven guys are more volatile. I try to measure that within the rankings, but it's tough.
    FANTASTIC response. I still disagree with Bishop's ranking, but it really is cool to have you chime in here.

    I also find it curious that Markstrom and Bishop are both projected in the guide to have 31 wins, 4 shutouts, with a dobber confidence of 60% in being the starter. Exactly identical info! Markstrom went up in your ratings a little (24th to 21st) and Bishop went up a ton (27 to 15). Something else is in play there.

    Part of my problem is that I focus too much on the absolute ranking, and not enough on your very prominent disclaimer that +/- 5.0 points is essentially a margin of error.

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    I do agree the goalies are volatile.
    Which is why I love/prefer to see people TIER them, instead of just rank them.

    Here's a link from a guy at Yahoo! ranking some:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--ra...154114642.html

    I disagree on parts of this list (Quick at #1, I'd go 3. Rask at #4, I'd go 2. Bob & Smith at #5/#6, I'd put them both in the 15-20 range).
    There's a lot of differences in people's goalies lists, fo sho.
    Last edited by Pengwin7; August 20, 2013 at 5:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by letangerang58 View Post
    He was traded from both of those clubs because both of them had very good goalie duos. In fact, at the time he was traded from each club, both of those teams had arguably the best goalie tandems in the league. You make it sound like he got traded because he couldn't hack it in the NHL and the teams were trading him because they were giving up on him. How are you going to blame the fact that he couldn't stay with either of those teams on his ability?
    Have to agree with this.

    I was upset when Ottawa parted ways with Bishop because I thought he was more talented than Lehner, but they used a piece to fill a need and I bet Yzerman ultimately chose Bishop over Lehner when they were having the trade discussions for Conacher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evans334 View Post
    Have to agree with this.

    I was upset when Ottawa parted ways with Bishop because I thought he was more talented than Lehner, but they used a piece to fill a need and I bet Yzerman ultimately chose Bishop over Lehner when they were having the trade discussions for Conacher.
    No F'n way. Lehner is 100% the goalie of the Sens future, stated by management plenty of times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evans334 View Post
    I bet Yzerman ultimately chose Bishop over Lehner when they were having the trade discussions for Conacher.
    They traded for Conacher. Not Stamkos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    They traded for Conacher. Not Stamkos.
    With the current goalie market no way Lehner would fetch anywhere close to an elite level forward who is already established like Stamkos. That's a bit much, but we get your point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    With the current goalie market no way Lehner would fetch anywhere close to an elite level forward who is already established like Stamkos. That's a bit much, but we get your point.
    To pile on this, no goalie in the league will fetch a Stamkos!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NikW71 View Post
    To pile on this, no goalie in the league will fetch a Stamkos!
    I wasn't trying to be serious! The fact that Ottawa only got Conacher tells me something about Bishop's trade value...

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    I think Ben Bishop is a back-up calibre goaltender, and that is what his career will amount to when all is said and done. He may very well be able to tell his grandkids about the season or two that he was a "starter" for a weak TB club that had failed for years to address their goaltending issues, but this is not a guy that I would target in any kind of league. I like Lindback better and could see the back-up role fulfilled, yet again, by Bishop this very season.

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    Ya know I love ya Dobbsie, but there's no way Bishop should be 15th here. I think he's maybe 23rd to 25th, at best. Reasons being 1)Vasilevski is the goalie of the future in Tampa 2)TB's defense sucks and 3)Bishop has a LOT of holes, especially down low.

    If he's got a really good defense in front of him, then ok, maybe 20th or so but not better than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evans334 View Post
    Have to agree with this.

    I was upset when Ottawa parted ways with Bishop because I thought he was more talented than Lehner, but they used a piece to fill a need and I bet Yzerman ultimately chose Bishop over Lehner when they were having the trade discussions for Conacher.
    Lehner will be the better goalie of the two in the long run no questions about that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dongjohnson View Post
    1)Vasilevski is the goalie of the future in Tampa
    Most likely yes but it may take several years before he finally gets here. He just turned 19 a month ago and he is also playing in the KHL. Players seem to take longer when they play in the KHL and goalies I imagine are even worse. Most players need some time in the minors when the first come over as well. It could be 3-5 years before we see Vasilevski as the Bolts starter. Assuming Bishop has been successful during that time there is a chance that he could have found a new team by that point.
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    D: Pietrangelo, JJ, Streit, Brodie, Benn, ____
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