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Thread: The NHL players need a reality check...I think

  1. #76
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    People still attend games in Toronto right? ... Just sayin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    I can't tell if you're being facetious.

    I think even the most die-hard Panther fans would choose the former lol
    No, I was going to type something longer, but stopped after that statement. If someone is a Sens fan, and they live in Ottawa, they get a choice of what game to see. Pittsburgh and Washington would obviously outsell Florida or Phoenix.

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    I've never realized that the leafs never host a "shitty" team on a Saturday until I was a season ticket holder last year.

    Isles, Yotes, Blue Jackets, etc always came into town mid week. Usually Tuesday games.

    Sat HNIC games are pretty much reserved for Ottawa, Rangers, Philly, Boston, Washington. Original 6, rivalries, or other big marketing teams. Im sure this is identical in other markets as well.

    Never realized it till last year though. Selling a Tuesday night game against the Islanders was a bitch!

    Selling a Sat night game against the Islanders, and a Tuesday night game against Montreal would have been a lot more profitable!! Never happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    I've never realized that the leafs never host a "shitty" team on a Saturday until I was a season ticket holder last year.

    Isles, Yotes, Blue Jackets, etc always came into town mid week. Usually Tuesday games.

    Sat HNIC games are pretty much reserved for Ottawa, Rangers, Philly, Boston, Washington. Original 6, rivalries, or other big marketing teams. Im sure this is identical in other markets as well.

    Never realized it till last year though. Selling a Tuesday night game against the Islanders was a bitch!

    Selling a Sat night game against the Islanders, and a Tuesday night game against Montreal would have been a lot more profitable!! Never happened.
    Hah yeah, it's always been like that. Can you imagine Hockey Night in Canada with the Leafs taking on the Panthers!?!? What a waste viewer-ship that would be lol

    Another reason for the disparity in fortunes between the big market and small market teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    Sure, they help contribute to long playoff runs, but even so... no one pays to see those guys.
    The superstars are the reason tickets get sold even when the team is losing.
    Another reason why the lion's share of a team's salary should go to the superstars.

    I mean, seriously, if your best argument is that 3rd and 4th liners demand good money because championships can't be won without them... then what should 3rd and 4th liners from losing teams get paid? League minimum?!
    Ok then.

    Sidenote: Chicago also struggled to make the playoffs because their goaltending fell apart. But again, it doesn't matter. Fans pay to see Pat Kane, not Adam Burish. And they continued to pay to see Pat Kane even after Chicago fell from grace.
    Most fans don't pay to see individual players. Most fans pay to see their teams win. Also the issue with losing teams is that they usually don't have enough depth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    Actually, I would say the majority of NHL fans who attend live games are "star gazers" and I'm guilty of this myself. Even the remote chance of seeing someone like Crosby, Stamkos or Ovie do something special is better than no chance at all.

    Through my company I'm fortunate enough to have access to front row season tickets, and Pens, Caps, Blackhawks, Wings games are always the first to go.

    Tickets for games like Florida, NYI, Buffalo (ie: teams with no marquee players) are always available.

    It's just human nature.
    I don't know. I think first and foremost people are going to see their team. Then if this is a special occassion (they don't go to every game of the season) they will try to get the most entertaining game. If that means there will be superstars on the ice then that's what they will go for. But I think the most important marketing strategy for teams is winning games.

    Also I remember seeing an aweful lot of Talbot jerseys in Pittsburgh before he signed in Philly. People definitely have an appreciation for those depth players who help their teams win games and they know and love these players too.
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    I forget where it was mentioned about player salaries and normal distribution and such... however I will throw out some info here:

    According to NHLnumbers.com about 796 players counted towards the cap in 2011/2012. They ranged from Ovi at a cap hit north of 9mil to Stephen Gionta at 0.006 mil (1 game, league minimum).

    The average cap hit was 1.966mil per player, the mid-point cap hit was lower at 1.2mil. Standard deviation was 1.88mil.
    About 77% of players are +/- 1 StDev of the average. Only 5.5% are more than 2 StDevs away from the mean. Not that far off a normal distribution by these measures.

    Incidentally, the average for games played was about 54 (53.8) and the mid-point was 63.

    Notes
    This data only pertained to cap hits for players in 2011/2012 so minor leaguers (Redden) or injured players (Savard) are not included. Goalies are also not included.
    There is some question regarding consistency of their compilation with regards to players like Crosby who only played 22 games yet had a cap hit over 8mil listed.
    On the whole though I'd say it is a fair ballpark look at salaries.

    Anyway, make of it what you will.
    /S

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  8. #83
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    2/3 lose money? What owner koolaid are you drinking?
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    I think that (in order to determine if "overpaid" might be an accurate description) a more relevant analysis would be looking at salary growth over the years.

    < All the while, keeping in mind that 2/3 of the league is unprofitable >


    Since 1991, which is not really that long ago, average salaries have gone from:
    271,000 to 2,440,381 (so a multiple of about 9)

    Too long of a timeframe?

    Ok, how about from 2007...

    Since 2007, average salaries have gone from:
    1,666,063 to 2,440,381 (so an increase of about 46.5%)


    In the past 5 years, average salaries have increased 46.5% while 2/3 of the franchises currently lose money, and the PA has the audacity to say in negotiations "what have the owners given us?!"

    Hilarious.
    Salary growth is directly tied to league revenue growth via the salary cap. If the league had meaningful revenue sharing (like the NFL) then the number of money losing clubs would come down. Claiming that players have been making out like bandits at the expense of the owners is a bit misleading.

    Was 57% too high? Yes.

    But here's the part that WILL BLOW YOUR EFFING MIND: If the cap was set at 40% in 2005 then salaries would still have grown by 46.5% since 2007. Your argument is bunk, player salary growth since the last lock-out neither proves nor disproves any position save the leagues claims of revenue growth.
    /S

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    My bad, 2/3 aren't profitable. Better?

    (roughly) 1/3 make money, 1/3 break even, and 1/3 in the red

    Although I do consider "break even" a loss in the sense that there's an enormous opportunity cost involved with running a franchise that has to struggle just to break even. It seems like an unsustainable model to witness that kind of salary growth with 2/3 of the franchises not generating a profit.
    The hockey team per se or the entire organizations as a whole? Cuz Jacobs et al make a shit ton of revenue off secondary revenue streams (parking, merchandise, vendors, F&B etc), effectively off setting any "loss" the team itself might accrue.
    @SmittysRant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    The hockey team per se or the entire organizations as a whole? Cuz Jacobs et al make a shit ton of revenue off secondary revenue streams (parking, merchandise, vendors, F&B etc), effectively off setting any "loss" the team itself might accrue.
    You know, with this cross-border metric/imperial conversion nonsense things can get a bit confusing. Where does 'shit ton' rank compared to 'ton' (907kg) or 'tonne' (1000kg)... and is there a 'shit tonne' as well?
    /S

    ~ I'm not a sociopath, it's just that my magnetic personality keeps throwing off my moral compass.~

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    LW(3): Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Hymen
    RW(3): Bjorkstrand, Smith, Palmieri
    F(3): Stepan (C), Bjork (LW), Poehling (C)
    D(6): Carlson, Heiskanen, Bogosian, Edler, Hakanpaa, Fleury
    G(1): Talbot, Sorokin, Varlamov
    Bench: Parise (LW), Motte (C), Richardson (C), Hagg (D)
    IR: Wood, Henrique, Johnson, Dvorak

    Prospects: (F) Barre-Boulet, Khovanov, Beckman, Greig, N. Robertson, Fagemo, Tuomalaa, (D) Ceulemans, Hughes, Schneider, Zboril

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    The hockey team per se or the entire organizations as a whole? Cuz Jacobs et al make a shit ton of revenue off secondary revenue streams (parking, merchandise, vendors, F&B etc), effectively off setting any "loss" the team itself might accrue.
    Most of those (parking, merchandise, vendors etc.) are counted against HRR so it isn't something that goes directly into owners' pockets as such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    So the league needs more meaningful revenue sharing so that forgettable players can continue to be overpaid by their owners, who pass the extra cost along to truly underpaid people like me.

    Gotcha.
    Knock it off. That isn't what I said at all.

    Oh and if you think the cost of tickets would go down after a massive drop in player salaries I want what you are smoking.
    /S

    ~ I'm not a sociopath, it's just that my magnetic personality keeps throwing off my moral compass.~

    Victoria DH
    C(3): Athanasiou, Sissons, Zibanejad
    LW(3): Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Hymen
    RW(3): Bjorkstrand, Smith, Palmieri
    F(3): Stepan (C), Bjork (LW), Poehling (C)
    D(6): Carlson, Heiskanen, Bogosian, Edler, Hakanpaa, Fleury
    G(1): Talbot, Sorokin, Varlamov
    Bench: Parise (LW), Motte (C), Richardson (C), Hagg (D)
    IR: Wood, Henrique, Johnson, Dvorak

    Prospects: (F) Barre-Boulet, Khovanov, Beckman, Greig, N. Robertson, Fagemo, Tuomalaa, (D) Ceulemans, Hughes, Schneider, Zboril

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post
    You know, with this cross-border metric/imperial conversion nonsense things can get a bit confusing. Where does 'shit ton' rank compared to 'ton' (907kg) or 'tonne' (1000kg)... and is there a 'shit tonne' as well?
    It's between a metric ton and two-tons-oh-fun.

    lol...I have to admit, I adopted that expression from my wife. And I also asked her if it was similar to a metric ton. Too funny...
    @SmittysRant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Most of those (parking, merchandise, vendors etc.) are counted against HRR so it isn't something that goes directly into owners' pockets as such.
    They're logged in different books and are not considered HRR, nor are luxury suites. but they do indeed go into the owners pocket.

    Concerts and all events within the arenas too.
    @SmittysRant

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