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Thread: Montreal Canadiens

  1. #2371
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    In response to Eric's various comments:

    - I absolutely believe in "windows", and for good reason, the salary cap. It is so difficult to manage a team where you will be competitive year in year out, although of course that's the goal and some teams may be lucky enough to be in a position to do so (Pittsburgh is an excellent example). Look at the Rangers, now they've made some trades which may very well make them a more consistent contender, with the number of young guys they have, but ask anyone who closely follows the Rangers and they will tell you the huge window for the Rangers to win is the 4-year or so period starting with last year, after which Lundqvist will likely be starting somewhat of a decline. In the Habs case, there will be a window where all of the core guys are signed (Price, Subban, Galchenyuk, etc.) and have played together for years, before they become UFAs, and that's when they'll have the best chance at winning a Cup, as difficult a task as that is. Windows exist.

    - Size cannot be downplayed when it comes to playoff hockey. Look at the impact of size in the Hawks winning run,a nd how much they suffered when they lost the Brouwers and Byfugliens the next year. Look at Boston's winning run. Lots of it based on having big heavy hitters with skill.

    - You can use the examples of Higgins, Kostitsyn, Komisarek, sure they're relevant examples of how even players who start off strong (not prospects) can somehow not pan out. But there is one big difference this time around, it's a new administration with personnel that, at least so far, seem to be much better placed to encourage (a) better scouting and evaluation of talent and drive (Bergevin, Dudley, Mellanby, Carriere, in addition to Timmins obviouslyl), both in terms of drafting amateurs but also trading for professionals, and (b) better development of players, both amateur and vets (Habs coaching staff, particularly guys like Jodoin and JJ Daigneault with the big squad and Lefebvre with the Bulldogs).

    No guarantees, of course, but all good signs.
    Last edited by ross10019; May 15, 2013 at 6:05 PM.

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    Interesting thing about Bergevin now is that obviously we will have lots of possible trades or free agent signings coming based on his former role with Chicago - for example, I thought we might be able to sign a guy like Bryan Bickell this summer, exactly the kind of guy we need, huge and with enough skill to contribute 12-15 mins a night no problem. Also Stallberg, a big scorer, could end up being available. This was also mentioned today on TSN690.

    This happens alot where teams end up having their favorite traing partners, look at SJ and Minnesota as one example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmyatt View Post
    Without a doubt there will be duds, it's inevitable. But between the crop from the '12 draft and whatever they draft in '13 there is a good chance a couple of them will turn into top 6 fwds that will contribute for 4-5 years which is all you can really ask for. Nobody's expecting 'franchise players' from either of these crops.
    I'm with you dude, people always hyper focus on the 1st rounders but 2nd round is often where you get some great bang for your buck and having multiple picks allow the Habs more chances to nab a star. It also allows them to play it safe with one pick, take a chance on another, etc.

    Here are some 2nd round picks by the Habs that were no slouches:

    -PK Subban
    -Chris Chelios
    -Mike Ribeiro
    -Stephan Richer
    -Claude Lemieux
    -John Leclair

    I can't wait to see how well they do in this draft, I'm hoping for great things

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    Alexei Emelin won't be ready for the beginning of the 2013-14 season. While the organization did not give a precise timeline, they confirmed that Emelin won't be able to participate to the training camp. He still haven't undergo surgery, but he should pretty soon.

    Regardless of Emelin status, I expect that most of Bergevin's moves in the offseason will target his defensive squad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross10019 View Post
    ... based on his former role with Chicago - for example, I thought we might be able to sign a guy like Bryan Bickell this summer...
    I was looking at capgeek.com and seen his name as UFA this year. He's due for raise and I would be fine with the Habs throwing 2.5MM a year at him. He would be a perfect 3rd liner that could easily slide to 2nd when an injury strikes. Also a nice body in from the net for the PP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross10019 View Post
    In response to Eric's various comments:

    - I absolutely believe in "windows", and for good reason, the salary cap. It is so difficult to manage a team where you will be competitive year in year out, although of course that's the goal and some teams may be lucky enough to be in a position to do so (Pittsburgh is an excellent example). Look at the Rangers, now they've made some trades which may very well make them a more consistent contender, with the number of young guys they have, but ask anyone who closely follows the Rangers and they will tell you the huge window for the Rangers to win is the 4-year or so period starting with last year, after which Lundqvist will likely be starting somewhat of a decline. In the Habs case, there will be a window where all of the core guys are signed (Price, Subban, Galchenyuk, etc.) and have played together for years, before they become UFAs, and that's when they'll have the best chance at winning a Cup, as difficult a task as that is. Windows exist.
    I think that windows exists for teams that don't draft well, or don't manage their assets effectively. But it is also posible to build a perennial contender, even with the reality of the salary cap.

    Look at Vancouver... They are now at the crossroads, because the Sedins, who are no longer young players, will play their last year of contract next season. Vancouver draft record in recent years is atrocious, and they might lose a huge asset for nothing, or close to nothing, with Luongo. They had a window, but it might very well be closing soon.

    Chicago won a Cup, but managed their assets horribly (contracts to Huet and Campbell, the qualifying offers that did not get in on time), so they had a hard time afterward.

    San Jose and Detroit (and Pittsburgh is joining them) strike to me as teams that were great at building a perennial contender. Sure, it helps to strike gold at the draft (Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Crosby and Malkin) or to completely win a trade for a superstar (Joe Thornton), but these teams drafted well, which allowed them to replace departing players with low cost options, and to trade assets to fill their holes.

    Draft is the key, and Timmins will have a chance to bring the organization to another level with all the picks he has this year. With Galchenyuk, Price, Subban already in the mix, the future is bright, as long as they keep adding pieces to this core.

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    Quote Originally Posted by habs83 View Post
    I think that windows exists for teams that don't draft well, or don't manage their assets effectively. But it is also posible to build a perennial contender, even with the reality of the salary cap.

    Look at Vancouver... They are now at the crossroads, because the Sedins, who are no longer young players, will play their last year of contract next season. Vancouver draft record in recent years is atrocious, and they might lose a huge asset for nothing, or close to nothing, with Luongo. They had a window, but it might very well be closing soon.

    Chicago won a Cup, but managed their assets horribly (contracts to Huet and Campbell, the qualifying offers that did not get in on time), so they had a hard time afterward.

    San Jose and Detroit (and Pittsburgh is joining them) strike to me as teams that were great at building a perennial contender. Sure, it helps to strike gold at the draft (Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Crosby and Malkin) or to completely win a trade for a superstar (Joe Thornton), but these teams drafted well, which allowed them to replace departing players with low cost options, and to trade assets to fill their holes.

    Draft is the key, and Timmins will have a chance to bring the organization to another level with all the picks he has this year. With Galchenyuk, Price, Subban already in the mix, the future is bright, as long as they keep adding pieces to this core.
    To me it's pretty simple: teams are given a number of tools to improve their teams. So use them and do it correctly. That means drafting well, making smart trades, signing undrafted free agents, developing players properly, signing the right free agents, etc. So in essence I don't want to see the following:

    -Overpay for NYR garbage (Gomez)
    -Acquire CAR garbage (Kaberle)
    -Acquire MTL garbage (Cole)
    -Having a hard-on for certain regions of prospects (David Fischer) while avoiding a better Quebec prospect (Claude Giroux)
    -Trading 2nd round picks for guys like Dominic Moore
    -Trading Dion Phaneuf for scrap parts
    -Wasting cap space on long-term contracts just to plug holes

    ...and so much more.

    Teams that get themselves in trouble don't put themselves there by just doing one thing wrong. Calgary did not just draft poorly. They made awful trades and overpaid for just about every free agent. It's a total package failure on their end.

    So even if you have a draft bust or two you can overcome that by doing everything else correctly. So far so good under the new regime and if things are done correctly the team will not have any windows of opportunity. It will be in the mix every year. Maybe not top-end contender every time but always within reach. This is what I want to see.
    Last edited by ericdaoust; May 16, 2013 at 11:23 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    -Having a hard-on for certain regions of prospects (David Fischer) while avoiding a better Quebec prospect (Claude Giroux)
    Yeah but the converse to that is just as bad, how many times have we seen the Habs make personnel decisions (both in the organization and in the draft) based off whether they were Quebecois or not? Sure it's an awesome bonus to the organization if the best option happens to be from Quebec but too often I think it has been the deciding factor

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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    Yeah but the converse to that is just as bad, how many times have we seen the Habs make personnel decisions (both in the organization and in the draft) based off whether they were Quebecois or not? Sure it's an awesome bonus to the organization if the best option happens to be from Quebec but too often I think it has been the deciding factor
    That's the problem. Fischer was considered a reach at the time. Gainey had a hard-on for American defensemen at the time.


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    I agree with those who say teams have windows. No amount of drafting, free agents, etc. is going to be perfect and keep that window open.

    Pittsburgh looks good now, but six years ago, they were the laughingstock of the league.

    Chicago looks good now, but the same as Pittsburgh. It wasn't too long ago they were brutal.

    Vancouver is on their way there now. The window is closing.

    There are going to be times when teams suck, and the window they had to compete for the Cup is gone. Every team goes through it.

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    Also, Claude Giroux is not a Quebec prospect. He was born in Hearst, Ontario, and grew up in Orleans, Ontario. He played minor hockey in Ontario, and junior in Gatineau (right across the border), and has a French last name. But he's not a Quebec player. He played in the Quebec league because no one in the OHL drafted him.

    Sorry for the rant, but it's one of those misconceptions that really bother me for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newfcollins View Post
    Also, Claude Giroux is not a Quebec prospect. He was born in Hearst, Ontario, and grew up in Orleans, Ontario. He played minor hockey in Ontario, and junior in Gatineau (right across the border), and has a French last name. But he's not a Quebec player. He played in the Quebec league because no one in the OHL drafted him.

    Sorry for the rant, but it's one of those misconceptions that really bother me for some reason.
    I think he Eric meant QMJHL player when he said "Quebec" player. Referring to a period where Habs brass had a hard-on for NCAA players. I'm sure Eric knows this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by newfcollins View Post
    Also, Claude Giroux is not a Quebec prospect. He was born in Hearst, Ontario, and grew up in Orleans, Ontario. He played minor hockey in Ontario, and junior in Gatineau (right across the border), and has a French last name. But he's not a Quebec player. He played in the Quebec league because no one in the OHL drafted him.

    Sorry for the rant, but it's one of those misconceptions that really bother me for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmyatt View Post
    I think he Eric meant QMJHL player when he said "Quebec" player. Referring to a period where Habs brass had a hard-on for NCAA players. I'm sure Eric knows this.
    Maybe. But I never hear anyone refer to Crosby as a Quebec player, even though he played in the Q. Or Radulov. Or Voracek. Or Luke Adam. etc.

    But I find Giroux is always referred to as a Quebec player, especially in major media. I think it's the French-last name more than anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    Yeah but the converse to that is just as bad, how many times have we seen the Habs make personnel decisions (both in the organization and in the draft) based off whether they were Quebecois or not? Sure it's an awesome bonus to the organization if the best option happens to be from Quebec but too often I think it has been the deciding factor
    In terms of the personnel, there's no doubt that's a real bias. I don't intend to debate the merits of that policy. I've learned my lesson during the whole Cunneyworth episode

    But I don't see evidence of this having happened in recent years in terms of the players. The only one that comes to mind is Leblanc --where the organization arguably caved in to media pressure for a draft held at the Bell Center.

    Other than that, I can't think of recent examples of players being drafted or called up solely based on their birthplace.

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