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Thread: New York Rangers

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretsel27 View Post
    Wow, on paper..this team looked like the team to beat. Is it safe to start pointing fingers at the coaching staff now? Torts? or is he still doing the right things? Is it the players not performing to their abilities ie. Gaborik, Richards, Lundy..

    I wonder if they just need this shortened season to develop team chemistry. Its not like they added a whole lot of pieces. A major one in Nash - but the rest seems intact. Maybe its the tough divisional/conference matchups they are drawing ie. BOS, PITTS, NJD..

    Anyways, im just perplexed how they are slipping off a playoff spot after being ranked so high by many including myself. Do you guys see any movement or firing this coming deadline to turn this team around?!
    the rangers 'looked good on paper' many of the 7 straight seasons they missed the playoffs so good on paper as many are finding out means very little

    torts is part of the problem i find him to be an extremely overrated coach personally and i am not sure he is a very relevant coach in todays nhl

    he has this ridiculous insistence on only having 1 assistant coach (allaire is a special case) and it is obvious by the horrible powerplay that not having more than 1 assistant is hurting the team because neither he nor sullivan seem to know the first thing about a powerplay

    another part of the problem is that after 7 seasons of great play henrik lundqvist is looking kinda ordinary of course kinda ordinary is pretty relative but considering the amount of offense on this team it makes all the difference in the world

    and of course the mercs are probably the biggest part of the problem not sure if gaborik is still hurt or he just doesnt give a shit but his seeming lack of effort shouldnt be a shocker to those who remember him getting his ass chewed out by his coach in minny on a regular basis

    as for richards it is pretty obvious that this guy came here seeking the country club atmosphere and intends to just cash his checks for the rest of his day and give little to no effort

    the team is horribly soft as good of a player as nash is losing the defense and the physical toughness of dubinsky is hurting this team especially since they lost prust as well

    those guys would defend their teammates and make the team tough to play against but nobody is too afraid of this team and their purse swinging ways

    this is an organization that is rotting from top to bottom and things arent likely to change with sather in charge and it is questionable if they will change as long as dolan owns them

    i can always hope that when JD has done his work in columbus that perhaps sather will be ready to retire but i am not counting on anything except that this team will continue to disappoint by refusing to do things the right way

    as long as you continue to try to buy your championships and worry about assembling a collection of individuals rather than a team the results are going to be pretty similar to what they are now

  2. #422
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    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    #NYR morning skate lines: Nash-Richards-Gaborik Hagelin-Stepan-Callahan Miller-Boyle-Pyatt Haley-Halpern-Powe

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    #NYR D-pairs at morning skate: McDonagh-Girardi, Hamrlik-Stralman, Del Zotto-Eminger. Looks like Bickel and Gilroy will be out.

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    Also at #NYR morning skate, Arron Asham (back) on the ice with his teammates.

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    Lundqvist first goalie off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    #NYR morning skate lines: Nash-Richards-Gaborik Hagelin-Stepan-Callahan Miller-Boyle-Pyatt Haley-Halpern-Powe

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    #NYR D-pairs at morning skate: McDonagh-Girardi, Hamrlik-Stralman, Del Zotto-Eminger. Looks like Bickel and Gilroy will be out.

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    Also at #NYR morning skate, Arron Asham (back) on the ice with his teammates.

    Andrew Gross ‏@AGrossRecord

    Lundqvist first goalie off.
    I like those lines. I think Gabby should be skating with Nash and Richards. I mean, Torts had Gaborik playing with JT Miller for a hot minute and benched him during periods a few times. I just don't like the punishment mentality of a coach. I don't think it works. You can't pay a guy 7 million and give him 14 minutes and third line linemates.

    I'm not sure what the thinking is on Hamrlik. I'm not a fan of him on this team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaborlick View Post
    I like those lines. I think Gabby should be skating with Nash and Richards. I mean, Torts had Gaborik playing with JT Miller for a hot minute and benched him during periods a few times. I just don't like the punishment mentality of a coach. I don't think it works. You can't pay a guy 7 million and give him 14 minutes and third line linemates.

    I'm not sure what the thinking is on Hamrlik. I'm not a fan of him on this team.
    nash doesnt need others to score he proved that for years in columbus so putting him with 2 guys doing nothing right now is probably for the best

    also for a little while there stepan cally and hagelin were hot i think putting them together is a good idea a guy like hagelin creating with his speed a guy like stepan creating with his playmaking and cally taking a pounding around the net to finish it off that is a nice top line for this team

    as for hammer i dont know what sathers thought process was when he went into this season with the defensemen he did and while i am not a big fan of hammer at this stage of his career it is a better choice than trading for something worse

    as for gaborik only getting third line minutes and linemates i disagree i think that if you are going to punish a kreider or a mdz or anyone else on this team that gaborik should be treated no differently his play is what earned him on the third line and he should have to play his way off it like any other player

    what he has done in the past shouldnt get him a free ride for his entire contract

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    nash doesnt need others to score he proved that for years in columbus so putting him with 2 guys doing nothing right now is probably for the best

    also for a little while there stepan cally and hagelin were hot i think putting them together is a good idea a guy like hagelin creating with his speed a guy like stepan creating with his playmaking and cally taking a pounding around the net to finish it off that is a nice top line for this team

    as for hammer i dont know what sathers thought process was when he went into this season with the defensemen he did and while i am not a big fan of hammer at this stage of his career it is a better choice than trading for something worse

    as for gaborik only getting third line minutes and linemates i disagree i think that if you are going to punish a kreider or a mdz or anyone else on this team that gaborik should be treated no differently his play is what earned him on the third line and he should have to play his way off it like any other player

    what he has done in the past shouldnt get him a free ride for his entire contract
    I think you misinterpreted my point.

    Its not that I think Gaborik deserves special treatment, I think that punishing players period is a terrible way to build chemistry, accountability, etc. It is proven that award systems are much more effective than punishment systems in any situation. (other than crime, which in prison, award systems reduce sentences.)
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    LW: Gaudreau, Drouin
    RW: Kessel, B. Ryan, Nyquist
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    G: Holtby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaborlick View Post
    I think you misinterpreted my point.

    Its not that I think Gaborik deserves special treatment, I think that punishing players period is a terrible way to build chemistry, accountability, etc. It is proven that award systems are much more effective than punishment systems in any situation. (other than crime, which in prison, award systems reduce sentences.)
    i guess but there arent many teams out there than kill their kids with kindness

    when the kids screw up they get punished

    i have no problem with your idea however it needs to work across the board i dont like different treatment depending on the players

    imo you either kick all of their asses when they need to be kicked or you kick none of their asses you dont pick and choose

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    i guess but there arent many teams out there than kill their kids with kindness

    when the kids screw up they get punished

    i have no problem with your idea however it needs to work across the board i dont like different treatment depending on the players

    imo you either kick all of their asses when they need to be kicked or you kick none of their asses you dont pick and choose
    With the caveat that I don't have any idea what kind of personal constitution Gaborik has or what it will/would take to get him going, this actually raises quite an interesting tangent that I don't think gets enough consideration in sports.

    I think the notion of treating all players exactly the same from a motivational/instructional point of view is part of what's wrong with modern coaching. It's not that particular players should be favored over others, it's just that different players, as individuals (like the rest of us), react differently to different stimuli, such that what might be effective in getting one player going might be totally the opposite of what would be effective for another. Aside from "conduct detrimental to the team" situations (think Radulov last playoffs, repeat offenders who take stupid penalties and cost their teams and the sport), the question from a coach's perspective should always be "what can I do to make Player "X" perform better, maximize his potential, etc." It should rarely be approached from a pure punishment perspective as that action might be exactly contrary to what will best make Player "X" perform better -- the whole point of coaching and competing in the first place. In that regard, it's not a matter of coddling due to contract size, past accomplishments or whatever. It's a matter of effective leadership, managerial skill and science.

    Maybe that applies to some of the Rangers players, maybe it doesn't. Just something to think about is all.
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    while i understand what you are getting at to me at the end of the day it sounds like it ends up being more excuses to treat superstars like girls and grinders like men

    after all it would seem that the superstars would be the prima donnas with the fragile egos that need coaxing and the rough and tumble grinders who chew glass can take an ass kicking with the best of them

    but you know what fine even if we want to discourage making gabby cry there is no reason that players should be treated differently in terms of earning ice time

    if gabby is so fragile that being benched because he makes a bonehead play makes him cry he should try a new career

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    if gabby is so fragile that being benched because he makes a bonehead play makes him cry he should try a new career
    I don't know that it "makes him cry", but more that it alienates him.

    I remember the old anecdote from Jimmy Johnson's days with the Cowboys. Supposedly he said the following when addressing the team at the opening of training camp:

    "Men, you can count on me to be consistent. I'm going to consistently treat players differently."

    Jimmy understood that it's not that Aikman or Emmit weren't going to make mistakes; rather that he recognized that showing them up for it in front of the team would be detrimental both to the players themselves and to the team as a whole.


    RETIRED







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    i am sorry but as a coach you send the wrong message when you only call certain players out on poor play

    you teach the kids coming up that it is more important to be a superstar than it is to work your ass off and that is the wrong message to send to the kids

    this isnt just a matter of gaborik not scoring or blowing some coverage defensively

    the guy doesnt look like he is trying as hard as many of the other players on the team

    teams that win do so because they give the icetime to the players that are playing well this year not the ones that did so last year

    i dont know why people insist on making excuses for this one player who has had issues with his desire since long before he put on a rangers uniform

    the only person alienating gabby is gabby i guarantee that he would be getting plenty of icetime if he busted his ass even if he wasnt scoring

    but to expect him to get icetime when he not only isnt scoring but is on the ice for multiple goals against is some games is crazy talk imo

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    Right, I think a player complaining about the way he is being handled is a different matter; to me, that's along the lines of the conduct detrimental to the team type behavior because it airs the team's potentially dirty laundry publicly.

    But if we're talking about how best to get a player's production going, strictly penalizing by relegating him to 3rd/4th line minutes, stapling him to the end of the bench, or just tossing him up in the press box might just compound the problem. I can see that each of those techniques can and do have their merits in certain situations (for example, putting someone on the 3rd/4th line, or up in the box for a game or two, can assist them with simplifying their game if they are trying to do too much, allow them to focus on sound positioning first, and scoring second, etc). But if moving a guy down the lineup is intended solely to motivate him into producing more, it really is a bit counter-intuitive when you think about it.

    Not many teams are blessed to have shelves stocked with offensively skilled players occupying their 4th lines or, to some extent, even their 3rd lines. And at least on the surface, it makes little sense to think that a highly skilled offensive player will suddenly snap out of a funk and produce offensively when playing fewer minutes, which usually brings different fundamental assignments, and perhaps with guys who simply cannot see and play the game on the same level as him. I mean, there's plenty of posts on these boards bemoaning the fact that a guy like Tavares doesn't have the quality of linemates to play with as he should and that it's remarkable that he accomplishes what he does given his supporting cast (which in and of itself is a bit of a slight against a guy like Moulson), only to then believe that the answer to getting a slumping player going is to give him lesser quality TOI with lesser quality linemates.

    This is all just to say that there's weight trainers, dieticians and even sleep consultants that teams employ now seeking to get that edge. It seems to me that another area that could be explored further with the advent of some scientific studies are effective motivational techniques on players of different ilks. Anyhow, I'm not a coach and do generally trust that they know what they're doing in their profession more than I do ... just some observations that have gotten me thinking, particularly so here given the in-your-face style of coaching that Torts typically employs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post

    this isnt just a matter of gaborik not scoring or blowing some coverage defensively

    the guy doesnt look like he is trying as hard as many of the other players on the team
    That is a fair point and, if true, would also change the calculus for me and what I've generally been blabbering on about (which really wasn't meant to be tied to Gaborick specifically given that I haven't paid attention closely enough to know what the deal is with him).

    But I would agree that a lack of effort is different than not getting the results. The one thing that all of us can control is how hard we're willing to work at something ... coasting through does deserve receiving a bit harsher message.
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    W: Ovechkin/Toffoli/Necas/Giroux/E.Kane/K.Johnson(IR)/Schmaltz/Bjorkstrand/Drouin
    D: Dobson/Trouba(IR)/Mintyukov/Gostisbehere/Martinez/Edvinsson/York/Gudas(IR)/Tanev
    G: Saros/Demko(IR)/Askarov/DeSmith

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    and yet very few people have a problem when this is done to a kid that is supposed to be a huge producer

    when a kid struggles to produce he is dropped down the lineup to play with those same not producing meatheads so i see no problem with doing it across the board

    i am sorry but i believe everyone should earn their icetime not just the younger players

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    and yet very few people have a problem when this is done to a kid that is supposed to be a huge producer

    when a kid struggles to produce he is dropped down the lineup to play with those same not producing meatheads so i see no problem with doing it across the board
    I, for one, have an issue with it based on my own team allegiance. Not to highjack the Rangers thread, but as a Sabres fan, their handling of Grigorenko this season is a prime example and was nothing short of malpractice from start to finish. 8 minutes a night with the likes of John Scott ain't gonna do the kid much good. Glad they finally sent him back down.

    Anyhow, interesting discussion. Cheers.
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    Weekly Starts (3C, 5W, 5D, 1Util, 2G)
    G, A, PPP, SOG, BS, +/-, GAA, W+OTL, SV%


    C: MacKinnon/Eichel/Kopitar//Pinto/Wright
    W: Ovechkin/Toffoli/Necas/Giroux/E.Kane/K.Johnson(IR)/Schmaltz/Bjorkstrand/Drouin
    D: Dobson/Trouba(IR)/Mintyukov/Gostisbehere/Martinez/Edvinsson/York/Gudas(IR)/Tanev
    G: Saros/Demko(IR)/Askarov/DeSmith

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    Quote Originally Posted by dejeanneret View Post
    I, for one, have an issue with it based on my own team allegiance. Not to highjack the Rangers thread, but as a Sabres fan, their handling of Grigorenko this season is a prime example and was nothing short of malpractice from start to finish. 8 minutes a night with the likes of John Scott ain't gonna do the kid much good. Glad they finally sent him back down.

    Anyhow, interesting discussion. Cheers.
    thats fair then i have no problem with your outlook on it since you are looking that way across the board

    i have a bigger issue with consistency than i do with philosophy to be honest with you and since you are consistent in how you believe it should be applied i dont take issue with your thoughts

    and yeah i feel for you on grigs i hope it all works out for him because it would be a crime if they screwed things up as a result of what they did

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