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Thread: The PIM Dilemma

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    Default The PIM Dilemma

    A bit of background:
    I finished second in our keeper league last year. Our stats and how I placed: goals/2nd, assists/1st, + -/1st, PIM's/8th, all goalie stats, between 2nd and 4th...

    So basically it was the PIM category that killed my chance of winning (the guy who won had Carcillo, Downie, Pronger, and a couple others)....my teams looked like a bunch of girls compared to his!

    With only 8 keepers, he kept Pronger and Downie, but not Carcillo. So I am debating taking PIM guys that play a regular shift very early in the draft. Carcillo, Clarkson, etc. To do this however, I will have to forgo guys I REALLY want as goal scorers that may still be available, Kopitar, Hossa, Stastny...

    I am really undecided as to which way to go. The top 4 or 5 teams in the league this year could all be in a horse race down to the wire, and I figure I have as good a chance as any of them to pull it off. Yet I really can't decide as to try and fill my obvious gap early (I'll be drafting 10th and 12th in the first 2 rounds, after that I doubt these guys will be around) or just try and stock pile more goal scorers and hope I can out point him enough to stay ahead, possible grabbing some young crazy kid as the season goes on that is piling up the PIM's.....

    Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated.....
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    I am probably one of the few people in the world who think it is a good idea to totally forego PIM - just punt the category all together.

    You got 2nd place!!! That's excellent. Don't get too greedy here trying to create balance by acquiring PIM. Goons will constantly be called up from AHL that will get in a fight or stir up a teams' energy. Goal scorers & passers aren't magically called up from the minors.

    Personally, I think your team is excellent. Keep focusing on acquiring the best offensive players you can get an completely ignore the PIM.

    (This will be the unpopular advice & in the minority... but I'll stick to it)

    [NOTE ON POST: I did not know it was a points pool. Assumed Roto. Incorrect.]
    Last edited by Pengwin7; September 2, 2010 at 10:53 AM. Reason: DID NOT KNOW IT WAS A POINTS POOL. ASSUMED ROTO.

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    "I see you Penguin"
    I agree. Pass up Kopitar for Carcillo? hold on.
    HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHA!
    ok...thanks
    Contract Fantrax 14 teams, 8 keepers. 4 max lifers +/-
    3C, 3LW, 3RW, 1F. 5D,2G....5Reserves.
    Goal heavy. G=3.5 A=2 Add 0.5pts for D.
    Goalies:W=3,SO=4,start=2,Save=.1
    Assist +4, OF loss +1 loss= -1 Goal against -1
    C:MACKINNON,Kadri,Rossi,Thompson
    LW: KANE,HUBERDEAU,Marchand,kotkaniemi,Colton,N.Robert son
    RW:KUCHEROV,RANTANEN,Kessel,Bjorkstrand
    FOX,BURNS,Jones,Girard,lundkist,Hanafin
    G:CAMPBELL,Swayman
    Minors:Mctavish,Johnson

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    I don't disagree with either of you and am not a huge fan of the PIM stat, but as long as it is there I have to find a way of using it.

    As laughable as it sounds, here are how a few guys finished last year in our leagues point totals:
    Carcillo...142.5
    Kopitar...129
    Clarkson...80.5 (in 46 games)
    Stastny...126
    Downie...186

    So weather I like it or not, a regular playing scrapper can, and in many cases does, become more valuable that a goal scorer...
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    yeah I see your quandary but I don't think you can go after Carcillo with Kopitar sitting on the board!

    Step 1: I think you should acquire the absolute best team you can early and target those PIM guys after the initial run on star talent is thru and you start to hit the 60pt range (lots of forwards in the 50-60pt range so you won't miss out on much and if you jump in just before that you can probably grab a good PIM guy)

    Step 2: make some smart trades to supplement that category...you might have to overpay a bit but target guys like Malkin, Getlaf, Perry, Kesler, Burrows, Clowe, etc...guys that can score but will still get you high PIM numbers

    good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlobTheGreat View Post
    I don't disagree with either of you and am not a huge fan of the PIM stat, but as long as it is there I have to find a way of using it.

    As laughable as it sounds, here are how a few guys finished last year in our leagues point totals:
    Carcillo...142.5
    Kopitar...129
    Clarkson...80.5 (in 46 games)
    Stastny...126
    Downie...186

    So weather I like it or not, a regular playing scrapper can, and in many cases does, become more valuable that a goal scorer...

    oh so is this a league that you weight the categories and accumulate fantasy points? I assumed it was a roto league because of the way you listed it

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    sigh......you are probably right, in all honesty I just can't see myself going for knuckles over talent, even if it is the smart thing to do to try and win this year. I guess I will grab the best guys I can and wait for some new thug to establish themselves.

    Any sleepers in the Carcillo mold I should try to grab in later rounds?
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    With the players you listed - how many pts did Kopitar get compared to Carcillo?

    I like the idea of the multi-functional players, but not that early where you are passing on studs. Think about it this way - if you had one of those players, you would have had less goals, less assists, etc and may have finished 3rd, or 4th. Same chance of finishing 1st.

    Anyway, skip the PIM guy early and just pick up a one-dimensional guy later...a dman or depth player. A guy like Konopka from last year.

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    I think a guy like Wayne Simmonds will be kicking around still by mid-draft, so I suspect I will focus on "legitimate" point getters early and then get a few guys that get decent PIM's (Simmonds had 116 pim's last year) to hopefully make up the difference.
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    The other thing about PIM is that if you try to plan around them - you will get burned.

    Look at TB, for example:

    1. We all knew Downie was a goon, but what a crazy year last year w/200+ PIM.
    2. Now TB brings in a very gentlemanly GM (Yzerman) and, surprise, no new contract for 250+ PIM guy Zenon Konopka - gone to NYI.
    3. Do you think Stevie Y is going to allow Downie to continue to rack up PIM and put his team short-handed? I say no. I see him sitting Downie down (no pun intended) for a little chat. "son, you have talent - if you want to play here, it will be based on your skill & grit... but not by those PIM".

    Look at PHI, as another example:

    1. Carcillo racks up the PIM, we all know. But when they really need offense in the playoffs, where did he find himself? Healthy scratch!
    2. And consider Riley Cote. 7th in league PIM in 08-09. PHI let him play 15 games in 09-10.

    As for sleepers:
    *David Backes isn't really a sleeper. But what a guy who might be ready to explode! Draft him if he's not a keeper.
    *Wayne Simmonds is another guy I really like. He had 40pts in just 14min/game of ice time. Racked up 100+ PIM. AND, (love this!), +22... which means he is "hockey smart". LA should find a way to get him 17-18min/game this year. [HA, YOU BEAT ME TO THE PUNCH ON THIS ONE... TOOK ME A WHILE TO WRITE UP THIS POST!!!]
    *James Neal. A player with fantastic offensive upside and the occasional mean streak.

    These are three players you will enjoy watching on TV.

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    this is accumulated points, not roto.

    Agreed, the PIM department is always a risky one (you don't have to tell me, I am the guy that grabbed Chris Simon with his first pick the year after he had 800,000 gazzilion penalty minutes and watched him do absolutely nothing the next year!! hahaha)...once bitten....

    Thanks guys, the crazy has been contained!!
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    Do the math - Downie, Carcillo and Clarkson (had he played enough games) handily outpointed a guy who got 80 some real points (Kopitar).

    This isn't rocket science, baby. Take the guy who is likely to give you the most points in your format and keep doing that every round - it has to work! So what if you don't end up with a bunch sexy forwards on your team - winning deals with that issue real quick.

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    Damn you Shoeless, just when I was about convinced!! LOL...I'm glad that kid stole your shoes!

    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlobTheGreat View Post
    A bit of background:
    I finished second in our keeper league last year. Our stats and how I placed: goals/2nd, assists/1st, + -/1st, PIM's/8th, all goalie stats, between 2nd and 4th...
    Just a tip. Put your scoring in your SIG. With points for PIM.
    As soon as you write something like above... everybody assumes it is Roto. I did.
    (Completely have to reconsider my previous tips. Will put addendum note on original comment)

    {sorry}
    Last edited by Pengwin7; September 2, 2010 at 10:54 AM.

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    ahhh...will do! Thanks for the heads up, that never occurred to me.
    12 team keeper league. 8 keepers/team.
    Skater Pts: goal = 2, assist =1, +/-, PIM = .5
    Goalie Pts: win = 5, SO = 3, Sv = .1, GA = -.9

    FORWARDS:
    C. Giroux, I. Kovalchuk, E. Malkin, D. Clarkson, D. Perron, J. Pominville, J. Tootoo, R. Mason, R. Nash, J. Iginla, S. Gagner, R. O'Reilly, T. Bozak
    DEFENSE:
    C. Letang, Mike Green, A. Edler, N. Kronwall, D. Engelland, K. Yandle, B. Dillon, P. Martin
    GOALIES:
    R. Miller, J. Quick J. Hiller, C. Nilstorp

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