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Thread: Crosby down

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Crosby down

    any chance Crosby calls it a career soon? don't know too much on concussions but wouldnt taking that many concussions be terrible to your health in the long run?

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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Guess it depends if you consider the Steckel/Hedmen/Krejci sequence one or multiple.

  3. #48
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    I don't think there was anything wrong with a major and game misconduct (lucky for Caps to have dressed 7 D-men) but I doubt that's suspension worthy.

    Caps finally figured out how to win against Pens.
    Step 1: Get Crosby out of the game
    Step 2: Win

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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    I love how you consistently fail to realize that you always wreck your argument while at the same time making mine for me.

    We agree that Bertuzzi premeditated his attack on Moore. We also agree he intended to attack more. I assume we agree he did not intend to break is neck. What I argued is Bertuzzi's intended result, not his intended action. You love to throw out "comprehension" shots but you're the one that always struggles with it. Also would like to point out, there's almost no example of a completely legal check that could break a player's neck.

    If you CANT agree that Niskanen intended to hit Crosby on that play (note, I'm not talking about the target of the hit, just that Niskanen did mean to hit Crosby), then I don't think you understand how hockey and contact works. Niskanen was skating at Crosby as he cut across the net. Niskanen's ONLY intent was to lay a hit on Crosby. There's no other interpretation of this play. If that WASN'T his intent, then he wouldn't have been in that position. By your definition, Niskanen pre-meditated his intent to hit Crosby by putting himself in position to do so. If you CANT agree on these specific points, you're absolutely clueless so there isn't even a point in debating this. There is concrete evidence to PROVE Niskanen's goal of this play was to make physical contact with Crosby.

    So now we're attempting to interpret if Niskanen intended to cross check Crosby in the face or not. I'd agree, probably not. He did intend to cross check him though, otherwise he wouldn't have put his second hand on his stick and raised his stick towards Crosby (again, PROOF of intent through action). I wouldn't ever assume a player "intends" to cross check another player in the face, but I'm also not naive enough to think I can definitively state malicious intent one way or the other as you have without some proof one way or the other.

    Ultimately though, the exact problem with prehistoric, archaic hockey mantra is that fans, media, players, and the NHL think there are circumstances in which a CROSS CHECK TO THE FREAKING HEAD can be less than a 5 minute major and a game misconduct.

    One day, the NHL will die. It's probably going to be on the back of this concussion lawsuit, one that allows the NHL to look worse and worse by the day through their inaction. I can't say I'll be sad though, because if the game endorses cross checks, again, this is important, TO THE HEAD, as deserving of only a two minute minor, then there are massive problems with this league and we need a reset.
    I know that you and I have a history of not agreeing with each other, but I am not really sure how it got to this. Maybe it's just a case of us just trying to one-up each other; honestly, sometimes the way we go back and forth is silly, sometimes it amuses me, and other times it pisses me off... Anyways... I don't know why you think, that I might assume that Niskanen didn't mean to hit Crosby. Have I ever said anything like that?

    As I have said, I am fine with them calling a penalty on the play. I think it should have been a minor penalty, and some agree with me, some don't. I am also fine with that too. What I do not like, is that possibility that a cross check to the face of Crosby may be penalized harsher than a cross check to the face of Bryan Rust. I do not like that Crosby may receive special treatment. Now, I am not saying that happened for sure, but the evidence of the refs changing their minds and upping the already-called minor penalty, to a major penalty once they realized it was Crosby holding his head, does support that possibility. Had it been called a major penalty in the first place, we would not be having this conversation. This is another "NHL refs need to be more consistent" complaint.

    It also seems, that you are reacting more seriously to this incident because it was Crosby as well. Now, if that is not the case and I am wrong, then I do apologize. I just hope that people try to stay objective in these situations. Yes, it sucks that this happened. Yes, I hope Crosby is ok. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest, that people are reacting harsher to this situation because it was Crosby, and because of his concussion history.

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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko-Pouko View Post
    I don't think there was anything wrong with a major and game misconduct (lucky for Caps to have dressed 7 D-men) but I doubt that's suspension worthy.

    Caps finally figured out how to win against Pens.
    Step 1: Get Crosby out of the game
    Step 2:
    Step 3: Win
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    I don't know how many times I have to say that the players involved shouldn't matter before it's clear that the play is the problem.

    If:

    Niskanen did this to Crosby -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Niskanen did this to Rust -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Niskanen -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Rust did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension

    That the NHL continues to display that checks to the head of any kind are ok shows they do not care about concussions, or player safety. A cross check to the head should always result in 5, a game, and a suspension. If players knew hits to the head were going to cost them games, and a tangible amount of them, they wouldn't brace for contact by raising their sticks and arms to head levels. Intent should change the punishment from 3-4 games to 10+. Not from 0 games to 2. NHL player safety is a joke. The NHL does not care about their players, their safety, or protecting them. They care about empty gestures and illusions. It will cost them in the long run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    I don't know how many times I have to say that the players involved shouldn't matter before it's clear that the play is the problem.

    If:

    Niskanen did this to Crosby -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Niskanen did this to Rust -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Niskanen -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Rust did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension

    That the NHL continues to display that checks to the head of any kind are ok shows they do not care about concussions, or player safety. A cross check to the head should always result in 5, a game, and a suspension. If players knew hits to the head were going to cost them games, and a tangible amount of them, they wouldn't brace for contact by raising their sticks and arms to head levels. Intent should change the punishment from 3-4 games to 10+. Not from 0 games to 2. NHL player safety is a joke. The NHL does not care about their players, their safety, or protecting them. They care about empty gestures and illusions. It will cost them in the long run.
    I get what you're saying, but this case it was chest height on Niskanen, Crosby was going down. I agree with your view, but Niskanen didn't have his hands at 6' above the ice.
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  8. #53
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    Default Re: Crosby down

    But Niskanen did raise his hands to make contact with Crosby's face.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    I don't know how many times I have to say that the players involved shouldn't matter before it's clear that the play is the problem.

    If:

    Niskanen did this to Crosby -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Niskanen did this to Rust -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Niskanen -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Crosby did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension
    Rust did this to Wilson -> It should be 5, a game, and a suspension

    That the NHL continues to display that checks to the head of any kind are ok shows they do not care about concussions, or player safety. A cross check to the head should always result in 5, a game, and a suspension. If players knew hits to the head were going to cost them games, and a tangible amount of them, they wouldn't brace for contact by raising their sticks and arms to head levels. Intent should change the punishment from 3-4 games to 10+. Not from 0 games to 2. NHL player safety is a joke. The NHL does not care about their players, their safety, or protecting them. They care about empty gestures and illusions. It will cost them in the long run.
    What it should be and what the NHL have set as a precedent are so far a part.... that they have a long way to go to get to the scenarios you describe above.

    And I think that most people that are saying that it should not be a suspension are basing that on the precedent that the NHL has set.


    IF the NHL called every stick to the face a 5 minute major and a suspension, then yes Niskanen should have been suspended... but the NHL missed out on this opportunity by not giving out suspensions consistently over the past several years.

    Then people are accurate is suggesting that this should not be a suspension. There is no precedent for it, and you start making a precedent in the 2nd round of the Stanley Cup Playoffs is the wrong time to do it. They have to start at the start of the season and be consistent in suspending infractions involving the stick from the start of the season.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by marsid6687 View Post
    But Niskanen did raise his hands to make contact with Crosby's face.
    Did he? Or did he brace himself for contact? Everything I have herd on Sportsnet 590 is that he did not extend his arms as a normal cross check.

    If a guys is coming at you, I would suggest that it is reasonable to put up your arms to brace your self against contact of an NHL sized player coming at you full tilt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinHunter View Post
    Did he? Or did he brace himself for contact? Everything I have herd on Sportsnet 590 is that he did not extend his arms as a normal cross check.

    If a guys is coming at you, I would suggest that it is reasonable to put up your arms to brace your self against contact of an NHL sized player coming at you full tilt.
    On the other hand, why would he put a second hand on his stick, and not let go of the stick on contact?

    Glen Wesley‏ @Wesdefend2

    So Niskanen said it wasn't intentional? Why didn't he let go of stick on follow through? Throw the book at him!#brutal

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post

    That the NHL continues to display that checks to the head of any kind are ok shows they do not care about concussions, or player safety. A cross check to the head should always result in 5, a game, and a suspension. If players knew hits to the head were going to cost them games, and a tangible amount of them, they wouldn't brace for contact by raising their sticks and arms to head levels. Intent should change the punishment from 3-4 games to 10+. Not from 0 games to 2. NHL player safety is a joke. The NHL does not care about their players, their safety, or protecting them. They care about empty gestures and illusions. It will cost them in the long run.
    I don't agree with your conclusions. Just because the NHL doesn't take every single step possible in order to eliminate all checks to the head that does not equate to the NHL not caring about protecting their players. The NHL likely accepts the fact that it is a dangerous game and because of its speed there are inevitable checks to the head that will happen. The egregious, predatory hits have been nearly eliminated and now all we are left are the gray area hits.

    Compare the game now to where it was 20 years ago. How about 10 years ago. Player safety has improved dramatically. I don't know if we would like the game as much if every action that could result in a head shot is legislated out with penalties and suspensions. Just like football, to some degree players have to accept the risks of the game. If you have rules in place to throw out and suspend Niskanen for his Crosby hit what is next?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Nation View Post
    I don't agree with your conclusions. Just because the NHL doesn't take every single step possible in order to eliminate all checks to the head that does not equate to the NHL not caring about protecting their players. The NHL likely accepts the fact that it is a dangerous game and because of its speed there are inevitable checks to the head that will happen. The egregious, predatory hits have been nearly eliminated and now all we are left are the gray area hits.

    Compare the game now to where it was 20 years ago. How about 10 years ago. Player safety has improved dramatically. I don't know if we would like the game as much if every action that could result in a head shot is legislated out with penalties and suspensions. Just like football, to some degree players have to accept the risks of the game. If you have rules in place to throw out and suspend Niskanen for his Crosby hit what is next?
    What's next? Hopefully fewer or zero cross checks to the head.

    When fan public reaction to 90% of suspensions is "not enough", the NHL clearly doesn't care about player safety.

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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    What's next? Hopefully fewer or zero cross checks to the head.

    When fan public reaction to 90% of suspensions is "not enough", the NHL clearly doesn't care about player safety.
    I am all about that. As I have said, I am just wondering if we would be getting the same passionate argument in exactly the same situation as we would if it was Rust who was on the receiving end of that hit. I know that you have said that you would be arguing that case, and if that is true, then great. However, I do know that there are many people screaming for justice specifically because it was Crosby and because it was his head.

    Crosby did just hack a guy's finger off. No ref approached Crosby to penalize him at the time when they realized how serious the injury was; Methot was literally missing a quarter of his finger. Maybe not the exact same situation, but I don't think it is unrealistic to suggest that there is a double standard going on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylant View Post
    I am all about that. As I have said, I am just wondering if we would be getting the same passionate argument in exactly the same situation as we would if it was Rust who was on the receiving end of that hit. I know that you have said that you would be arguing that case, and if that is true, then great. However, I do know that there are many people screaming for justice specifically because it was Crosby and because it was his head.

    Crosby did just hack a guy's finger off. No ref approached Crosby to penalize him at the time when they realized how serious the injury was; Methot was literally missing a quarter of his finger. Maybe not the exact same situation, but I don't think it is unrealistic to suggest that there is a double standard going on here.

    Rylant
    Crosby didn't not get suspended for that play because he's Crosby, or because it was on Methot. Crosby didn't get suspended because that play doesn't get suspended. Staal didn't get suspended when he broke Gaudreau's hand. Ovechkin didn't get suspended when he did it to Crosby last year. Slashes to the hand are barely ever given a two minute penalty, let alone supplemental discipline. Methot's finger looked bad, but it was ultimately just a broken finger. He's not permanently missing his finger. People want to create a double standard that doesn't exist. I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find even 5 suspensions over the last 5 years stemming from slashes that caused broken hands. With the O'Reilly spear, it should have been a suspension, but the NHL has shown they don't generally hand out supplemental discipline for those plays. They proved this when they handed Draisatl a fine for a far worse spear against the Sharks, where Tierney actually stayed down and was injured. Brad Marchand also speared Dotchin way harder than Crosby hit O'Reilly and he has a massive history. O'Reilly didn't even leave the ice. The NHL is the only professional sports league that doesn't go out of their way to protect their stars and they definitely don't give them special treatment.

    There should be a double standard. Stars should be treated differently and given more protection. Their the entire financial basis of the survival of the league. Nobody is paying $130 on a Tuesday night to watch Daniel Winnik and Tom Wilson flub passes on a 2 on 1. The fact is, that double standard simply does not exist. FWIW, Dustin Byfuglien got a longer suspension for a cross check on JT Miller than Brandon Dubinsky got for a near identical play on Sidney Crosby, The NHL never goes out of it's way to protect it's stars.

    All of those however, are separate from the fact that a cross check to the face is inexcusable, regardless of who delivers it and who receives it, and it should always be a 5 and a game and a suspension.

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