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Thread: Crosby down

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Crosby down

    I get it that maybe Niskanen didn't intend to crosscheck Crosby in the head. That isn't the point. What is the point is that crosschecking (and slashing) has become second nature to NHL players and the league has decided at some level that they are going to let most of them go. You now have a situation where the face of the league may be out of the playoffs because of an illegal, and dangerous play.

    Under the current precedent of NHL culture, maybe Niskanen only deserved a minor because of how the calls have gone. I think that's a serious problem. If the NHL chooses to crack down on crosschecking, and teams get tired of killing multiple crosschecking penalties every game, then it will stop. The behavior is rampant and is especially directed at skill players by those with lesser skill.

    You can nitpick about intent, Crosby's history, or any other fine point, but the fact is that the culture of the game now permits illegal and dangerous stickwork and it will continue until there is a deliberate focus by the league to deal with it.

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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Why does no one care Ovie whacked him in the head with his stick to make him fall in the first place?
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    If Crosby wasn't injured Niskanen doesn't get the major and the game. However I think it was probably in the refs best interest to do so to settle the game. I don't see a suspension forthcoming and case closed. I am Caps fan but this is not how I wanted to win the series. Hopefully Sid's ok. Malkin sure stepped his game up afterwards though. Still looks to be an uphill battle with or without Crosby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    Why does no one care Ovie whacked him in the head with his stick to make him fall in the first place?
    That was pretty minor, I am mean that would of been the definition of a minor high sticking penalty if what happened afterwards didn't occur.
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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Quote Originally Posted by Shift Disturber View Post
    I get it that maybe Niskanen didn't intend to crosscheck Crosby in the head. That isn't the point. What is the point is that crosschecking (and slashing) has become second nature to NHL players and the league has decided at some level that they are going to let most of them go. You now have a situation where the face of the league may be out of the playoffs because of an illegal, and dangerous play.

    Under the current precedent of NHL culture, maybe Niskanen only deserved a minor because of how the calls have gone. I think that's a serious problem. If the NHL chooses to crack down on crosschecking, and teams get tired of killing multiple crosschecking penalties every game, then it will stop. The behavior is rampant and is especially directed at skill players by those with lesser skill.

    You can nitpick about intent, Crosby's history, or any other fine point, but the fact is that the culture of the game now permits illegal and dangerous stickwork and it will continue until there is a deliberate focus by the league to deal with it.
    I agree.


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    Default Re: Crosby down

    Quote Originally Posted by lucafen4 View Post
    The hands don't go up, Crosby's head goes down as he's falling from the high stick from Ovie. Niskanen doesn't even make a significant forward motion with his arms, other than perhaps to keep distance from a checking player. Watching his eyes, he's following the play, not Crosby. It's not only lack of intent here... there isn't even that normal front of the net cross checking motion from what I can see, I've now watched this about 30-40 times.

    He's bracing for impact from Sid coming at him. I'd like some other folks to watch this a bunch of times too. Nisk. isn't even throwing a cross check at all.
    Like many others I echo this sentiment. NO intent whatsoever. Simply bad luck for Sid. Could just as likely be a leg injury.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylant View Post
    Well, you can't intend to injure somebody or intend to cross-check somebody in the face, without premeditating it. Hell, thefreedictionary.com defines premeditate as; intend to carry out. So, they are at the very least, largely related. Sorry if that's too complicated for you to grasp.

    The Moore/Bertuzzi incident was horrible. Yes, without a doubt, without intent, it would have been better. You seem to think that the only thing that matters is the result. By that logic, the way it actually went down should be considered the same thing, as if Moore would have broken his neck due to a completely legal check from Bertuzzi, with no intent which just happened to be an accident. You can't see the difference between the two? I tell you; that, is baffling.

    I think, that in order for something to be called a major penalty, several things should be taken into consideration. 1) the circumstances of the play. 2) the recklessness or carelessness of the play. 3) intent. 4) if the player on the receiving end was injured or not.

    In this case, I don't think Niskanen did anything nasty, it wasn't reckless, there was no intent, and Crosby was injured. The result shouldn't be the only thing taken into consideration. Now of course players need to be responsible for their actions and I am not saying there shouldn't have been a penalty on the play. I think it should have been a minor penalty, however, it wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much, had they called it a major penalty in the first place. As I have said, I really don't like that they called it a minor penalty, and then 2 minutes later, decided that it should be a major penalty. The possibility that they factored in that it was Crosby, and he was favouring his head, and he has a history of concussions doesn't seem right to me.

    Rylant
    I love how you consistently fail to realize that you always wreck your argument while at the same time making mine for me.

    We agree that Bertuzzi premeditated his attack on Moore. We also agree he intended to attack more. I assume we agree he did not intend to break is neck. What I argued is Bertuzzi's intended result, not his intended action. You love to throw out "comprehension" shots but you're the one that always struggles with it. Also would like to point out, there's almost no example of a completely legal check that could break a player's neck.

    If you CANT agree that Niskanen intended to hit Crosby on that play (note, I'm not talking about the target of the hit, just that Niskanen did mean to hit Crosby), then I don't think you understand how hockey and contact works. Niskanen was skating at Crosby as he cut across the net. Niskanen's ONLY intent was to lay a hit on Crosby. There's no other interpretation of this play. If that WASN'T his intent, then he wouldn't have been in that position. By your definition, Niskanen pre-meditated his intent to hit Crosby by putting himself in position to do so. If you CANT agree on these specific points, you're absolutely clueless so there isn't even a point in debating this. There is concrete evidence to PROVE Niskanen's goal of this play was to make physical contact with Crosby.

    So now we're attempting to interpret if Niskanen intended to cross check Crosby in the face or not. I'd agree, probably not. He did intend to cross check him though, otherwise he wouldn't have put his second hand on his stick and raised his stick towards Crosby (again, PROOF of intent through action). I wouldn't ever assume a player "intends" to cross check another player in the face, but I'm also not naive enough to think I can definitively state malicious intent one way or the other as you have without some proof one way or the other.

    Ultimately though, the exact problem with prehistoric, archaic hockey mantra is that fans, media, players, and the NHL think there are circumstances in which a CROSS CHECK TO THE FREAKING HEAD can be less than a 5 minute major and a game misconduct.

    One day, the NHL will die. It's probably going to be on the back of this concussion lawsuit, one that allows the NHL to look worse and worse by the day through their inaction. I can't say I'll be sad though, because if the game endorses cross checks, again, this is important, TO THE HEAD, as deserving of only a two minute minor, then there are massive problems with this league and we need a reset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinHunter View Post
    I agree.

    Should have been a penalty, and a suspension. That doesn't change anything about this play at all however. It just highlights what an embarrassment and abject failure the Department of Player Safety is, a division of the NHL that cares about anything but.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonko View Post
    Like many others I echo this sentiment. NO intent whatsoever. Simply bad luck for Sid. Could just as likely be a leg injury.
    I need to find this magical place on the interwebs where we can go back in time, enter a player's head while he's making a play, and get such certainty on this magical intent we have no possible way of actually knowing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shift Disturber View Post
    I get it that maybe Niskanen didn't intend to crosscheck Crosby in the head. That isn't the point. What is the point is that crosschecking (and slashing) has become second nature to NHL players and the league has decided at some level that they are going to let most of them go. You now have a situation where the face of the league may be out of the playoffs because of an illegal, and dangerous play.

    Under the current precedent of NHL culture, maybe Niskanen only deserved a minor because of how the calls have gone. I think that's a serious problem. If the NHL chooses to crack down on crosschecking, and teams get tired of killing multiple crosschecking penalties every game, then it will stop. The behavior is rampant and is especially directed at skill players by those with lesser skill.

    You can nitpick about intent, Crosby's history, or any other fine point, but the fact is that the culture of the game now permits illegal and dangerous stickwork and it will continue until there is a deliberate focus by the league to deal with it.
    Isn't your argument pretty much what Don Cherry has been saying for years? You take the fighting out of the game, evoke the instigator rule and watch the stick work go through the roof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    Isn't your argument pretty much what Don Cherry has been saying for years? You take the fighting out of the game, evoke the instigator rule and watch the stick work go through the roof.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Bang on. I'm not a Pens fan, but the NHL can crack down on the stick work if it wants to. Otherwise we will continue to see the stars miss action because of dirty plays.

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    BREAKING NEWS

    Mike Sullivan says crosby has a concussion and won't play in game 4

    just saw it on TSN facebook page

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    That is brutal with his History hoping for a speedy recovery but when does he just decided to hang them up? You can only take so many concussions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuntMan12 View Post
    BREAKING NEWS

    Mike Sullivan says crosby has a concussion and won't play in game 4

    just saw it on TSN facebook page
    Never a good sign when that is announced already. No game time decision or anything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canucks_fan18 View Post
    That is brutal with his History hoping for a speedy recovery but when does he just decided to hang them up? You can only take so many concussions.
    In fairness to this, he's had 3. One was obviously an extremely long absence, but was also partially because of an undiagnosed broken neck. So. I don't disagree with the premise, and wouldn't fault him to hang them up at this point. However, he's also had only 3, which isn't an extremely exorbitant number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    In fairness to this, he's had 3. One was obviously an extremely long absence, but was also partially because of an undiagnosed broken neck. So. I don't disagree with the premise, and wouldn't fault him to hang them up at this point. However, he's also had only 3, which isn't an extremely exorbitant number.

    i agree it seems like more than that because of his prolonged absence.


    Is it only 3 though? I thought the prolonged absences was because he came back to early from a concussion and ended up getting another one. So that would be two. And then he had one and the start of his year and now this one. Also do we know about his junior hockey history. Did he have any then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinHunter View Post
    i agree it seems like more than that because of his prolonged absence.


    Is it only 3 though? I thought the prolonged absences was because he came back to early from a concussion and ended up getting another one. So that would be two. And then he had one and the start of his year and now this one. Also do we know about his junior hockey history. Did he have any then?
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