Addictions

[forumname]

@Forumname

I just dont feel like the attack on daydream nations consumption is warranted. I have been in and out of "the rooms" for a long time now (assuming thats where youre getting this?)- and this is absolute classic projection. You are using a lot of hyperbole- whether you want to admit or not- to argue he should be cutting out something that to all intents and purposes sounds like it has enriched and augmented the guys life in a healthy enough way. Is it totally healthy? No probably not- but hes not talking about something that has mitigated great loss, stress, or adversity in his life. Imho youre using hyperbole because the topic is terrifying for you as an addict. If your addiction was halfway serious- you probably had a similar experience- except there were immediate, real and maybe even terminal consequences that you got very close to. I know for myself thats the case. So I get a little panicky when the subject comes up- but honestly not everyone is built the same way. I could argue til Im blue in the face about alcohol- I could cite some great empyrical evidence- TONS of anecdotal evidence- I could make a case that NOBODY ANYWHERE has ever benefitted from alcohol. But you know why I make that case? Because Im terrified of what I can do with alcohol- how far Id go. I know a lot of people who manage it absolutely fine- have great experiences with it and know how to shut it down. So even though Im probably trying to help- maybe trying to reinforce some ideas I need in place for me- Im really coming across as a dick. Youve used some pretty heavy language attacking someones use of one pot of coffee a day- and no offense- thats kind of dickish.

Sorry if Im being rude- I just see this sht all the time in recovery. Worry about you- share your knowledge- be helpful- but tone it down with the fire and brimstone- it just alienates people from what is an otherwise great and positive message.

Or dont- lol- I dont mean to be preachy- this tone is just such a huge pet peeve of mine thats all...

I think this is a fair point, but I'll respond later.

[StuntMan12]

Im going to go on a walking challenge to help aide my recovery. Everyday I want to walk at least 5 miles and keep going for as many days as possible. I got my bear spray to help protect me from animals.

During this time I will limit myself to 1xl coffee from Tim Hortons. I will look at this as a training camp if you will, eat as good as possible and dont over eat.

#RoadToRecovery
#BecomeTheManIWantToBe
#Believe

[forumname]

@Forumname

I just dont feel like the attack on daydream nations consumption is warranted. I have been in and out of "the rooms" for a long time now (assuming thats where youre getting this?)- and this is absolute classic projection. You are using a lot of hyperbole- whether you want to admit or not- to argue he should be cutting out something that to all intents and purposes sounds like it has enriched and augmented the guys life in a healthy enough way. Is it totally healthy? No probably not- but hes not talking about something that has mitigated great loss, stress, or adversity in his life. Imho youre using hyperbole because the topic is terrifying for you as an addict. If your addiction was halfway serious- you probably had a similar experience- except there were immediate, real and maybe even terminal consequences that you got very close to. I know for myself thats the case. So I get a little panicky when the subject comes up- but honestly not everyone is built the same way. I could argue til Im blue in the face about alcohol- I could cite some great empyrical evidence- TONS of anecdotal evidence- I could make a case that NOBODY ANYWHERE has ever benefitted from alcohol. But you know why I make that case? Because Im terrified of what I can do with alcohol- how far Id go. I know a lot of people who manage it absolutely fine- have great experiences with it and know how to shut it down. So even though Im probably trying to help- maybe trying to reinforce some ideas I need in place for me- Im really coming across as a dick. Youve used some pretty heavy language attacking someones use of one pot of coffee a day- and no offense- thats kind of dickish.

Sorry if Im being rude- I just see this sht all the time in recovery. Worry about you- share your knowledge- be helpful- but tone it down with the fire and brimstone- it just alienates people from what is an otherwise great and positive message.

Or dont- lol- I dont mean to be preachy- this tone is just such a huge pet peeve of mine thats all...

Everything you say here sounds great, but I really wasn't intent on attacking daydream nation at all and I don't think that's what I did. If you look at my early posts, I was only trying to help the OP get over his own addiction to caffeine and energy drinks.

My problem with daydream nation was his adamant claim that coffee is good for you and that the positives outweigh the negatives. Yes there are some recent studies that suggest this (along with others that oppose it), but these are opinions that have been changing back and forth since coffee was first introduced. I just don't think people should put much stock into these findings either way.

I think daydream was irresponsible in telling the OP he can keep drinking it because it's good for you, since the OP clearly sees a negative effect from it in his own life (otherwise he wouldn't have posted). I don't think I ever said anyone should stop drinking coffee - just that people who do it religiously and need it to alter their mood are in fact addicted to it. If that's not problematic, it's at least inconvenient and something worth looking at. Non coffee drinkers aren't bags of shit in the morning by default, only to be fixed by some magic substance. This is a trained behavior, encouraged by the *gasp* DRUG found in coffee.

I've never been to 'the rooms' and my addiction was a pretty socially acceptable one (smoking). I have no fear of addiction in myself (outside of maybe falling back into smoking, but that's fading fast) and I drink alcohol at will without much thought. I even throw in some recreational drug use for good measure! The fact is, people get fired up when you call them addicts of any kind because they don't like the connotations of the word, but that doesn't make the word any less appropriate. When I compare a nicotine or caffeine addict to a heroin addict, I'm not saying they are as bad or dirty or pathetic (or whatever assumptions people have about 'hard' drug addicts) - just that they are addicted to a substance in a similar way. The words 'drug' and 'addict' are obviously pretty loaded and some people have trouble disassociating those things from the sensationalist stuff we see and hear about, but that's not my fault. It doesn't have to be as serious as it sounds, but as far as I know there aren't yet any suitable euphemisms to help people stomach their 'drug addictions'. If I said he has a 'moderate caffeine inclination' instead, maybe he would have been less defensive. Just calling a spade a spade, but obviously coffee is a fantastic alternative to heroin...

I'm curious where you think I used hyperbole and what aspects of what I said constituted an attack. I did suggest he "try a couple days without it, just as an experiment", but obviously that's his call.

[Daydream Nation]

My problem with daydream nation was his adamant claim that coffee is good for you and that the positives outweigh the negatives. Yes there are some recent studies that suggest this (along with others that oppose it), but these are opinions that have been changing back and forth since coffee was first introduced. I just don't think people should put much stock into these findings either way.

I think daydream was irresponsible in telling the OP he can keep drinking it because it's good for you, since the OP clearly sees a negative effect from it in his own life (otherwise he wouldn't have posted). I don't think I ever said anyone should stop drinking coffee - just that people who do it religiously and need it to alter their mood are in fact addicted to it. If that's not problematic, it's at least inconvenient and something worth looking at. Non coffee drinkers aren't bags of shit in the morning by default, only to be fixed by some magic substance. This is a trained behavior, encouraged by the *gasp* DRUG found in coffee.

So I am irresponsible yet you are the ignorant one who didn't know the benefits of drinking coffee and who irresponsibly came to a conclusion and offered advice based on less than 15 minutes of internet scanning. I merely stated that the benefits of drinking coffee outweigh the negatives which is what the health and medical fields have been finding. Organizations like Harvard Medical, the Mayo Clinic and the American Chemical Society among many others have all reported this over the last 5-10 years. People would be foolish to listen to what you think instead of the professionals.

And all the hyperbole, proposed experiments, and elaborate explanations you make are just annoying fluff. Go ahead, have the last word. I am done with this.

[metaldude26]

So I listened to this great podcast the other day where a couple of PhD's talked about the benefits vs. negatives of coffee. I'll definitely butcher this stuff but the latest research, based on population studies mind you, indicates that daily coffee drinkers have lower incidences of all types of cancers, mortality, and cardiovascular disease. They did note some negatives. For instance some people do not process caffeine all that well depending on their genetic predispositions. I haven't yet looked at my 23andme data to check where I am at in terms of caffeine processing but the idea is that if you don't process it well then it lingers in your blood stream for longer, ramping up stress responses, which isn't a good thing. They also discussed the idea of mycotoxins, which are just a fungus that can grow on the beans if left stagnant for a while. Roasting kills most but not all of this stuff so their recommendation was single source type coffee where it is going to spend less time in processing and shipping to build up these fungi.

One other fun fact pulled from the podcast: coffee is a type of cherry! And the bean is just the seed plucked out of the cherry.

[forumname]

Ugghh, I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but here goes:

So I am irresponsible yet you are the ignorant one who didn't know the benefits of drinking coffee and who irresponsibly came to a conclusion and offered advice based on less than 15 minutes of internet scanning.

I already explained this to you once, but I'll try again. I never said I didn't know what the claimed benefits were! I only asked you what they were because I wanted to hear YOUR take on it. Something you still haven't done.

I merely stated that the benefits of drinking coffee outweigh the negatives which is what the health and medical fields have been finding. Organizations like Harvard Medical, the Mayo Clinic and the American Chemical Society among many others have all reported this over the last 5-10 years. People would be foolish to listen to what you think instead of the professionals.

Yes, you "merely stated" something you deem to be a fact that is actually far from fact. You keep spouting off about the professionals who say it's good for you, but have you even considered the professionals who say it isn't? SOME are finding that the positives outweigh the negatives, and SOME are finding the opposite. This has nothing to do with what I think. The jury is out on this, so stop being so absolute about it. I feel like a broken record.

And all the hyperbole, proposed experiments, and elaborate explanations you make are just annoying fluff. Go ahead, have the last word. I am done with this.

Again, what hyperbole are you referring to?? The part when I said caffeine is a drug? The part where I said people who rely on daily use of a drug to alter their mood are addicted to it? Help me out here.

I'm not even saying coffee is bad for you, I'm just saying *maybe* it isn't as good for you as you have determined. Why is that so hard to accept?? You're obviously very defensive and have a strong confirmation bias about the positive effects of coffee, but if OP feels it's having a negative impact on his life why would you come in and say 'nah your fine'? Talk about projecting...

[metaldude26]

Update: I finally got around to running my 23andMe data. Turns out that I am a slow caffeine metabolizer with a slower version of genes across the two that they have studied for. That makes me more sensitive to the effects (which checks out anecdotally) and also may leave me more prone to heart attacks. The flip side is that because caffeine spends more time in my blood stream, I get enhanced benefits from the positives like prevention of breast cancer, alzheimers, and parkinsons.

I don't think there's enough in this yet to turn me off of coffee but I am definitely going to be more conscious about how much I am drinking, how frequently and what time of day, etc. I was already monitoring this stuff just from observing effects on stress, sleep, etc. but I definitely have been emboldened to cut back.

This isn't the only stuff I have looked into with my 23andMe data, but I figured that I would share because I found it super interesting.

[Wrist_Shot]

Great info MD26...I wasn't aware of 23andMe. Really interesting, I just ordered the sample kit/service and can't wait do dive into the data.

[forumname]

This is the first I've heard of 23andme, and my mind is a little blown... This is something I would be really interested in if it's accurate and helpful - any more insight on whether or not it's worth it metaldude? Maybe start a new thread and tell us what you think about it!

[metaldude26]

This is the first I've heard of 23andme, and my mind is a little blown... This is something I would be really interested in if it's accurate and helpful - any more insight on whether or not it's worth it metaldude? Maybe start a new thread and tell us what you think about it!

Really simple to do. Order it up, it's about $100 and they send you the vial to collect your saliva and all the packaging to send it off in. Then they sequence your genome and hook you up with all this data connected to genetic studies. It also gives you ancestry data.

It's all fairly accurate, at least in terms of getting your genome correct. As for the genetic studies, some are more reliable than others. It all depends on the type of studies they have done on the subject but you can use it to look at stuff like susceptibility to certain types of diseases, potential vitamin deficiencies, etc.

The ancestry stuff has been well studied and is thus reliable.

The stuff you can do on the 23andMe website is fairly limited as far as the health studies go but they allow you to download a crapload of data that you can then export to another service with a much broader database of studies to compare to.

The basis for how I have used it is explained in this video:

[forumname]

Here's a video for you Daydream. I find this guy incredibly annoying, but the content is good.

[2014olympicgold]

23andMe is so overpriced.

My sister is a naturopathic Doc and she said one session she can figure out the actual needed info in it. Honestly what does the benefit of knowing what gene makes your hair brown? You’re paying for stuff that’s filler/cool info.

However, I am going to be all over 23andMe once the price drops. $200, nahhhhh.

I’m addicted to coffee. If I don’t have a coffee, it’s not just my energy levels that get messed up, the uh…bathroom schedule goes out of whack.

[Daydream Nation]

Here's a video for you Daydream. I find this guy incredibly annoying, but the content is good.

]

I watched that a couple days ago. I'll stick to the conclusions from the sources I listed over your opinions.

[iwinthings]

23andMe is so overpriced.

My sister is a naturopathic Doc and she said one session she can figure out the actual needed info in it. Honestly what does the benefit of knowing what gene makes your hair brown? You’re paying for stuff that’s filler/cool info.

However, I am going to be all over 23andMe once the price drops. $200, nahhhhh.

I’m addicted to coffee. If I don’t have a coffee, it’s not just my energy levels that get messed up, the uh…bathroom schedule goes out of whack.

If your sister is a naturopathic "doc" then she probably think she can cure cancer with the power of her mind as well.

[Loch]

If your sister is a naturopathic "doc" then she probably think she can cure cancer with the power of her mind as well.

Actually Naturopaths are regulated in most provinces and (in here in BC) have prescription powers for certain medications. A certified naturopathic doctor will almost certainly not believe what you suggest.


Fun fact: it was the 80s before actual doctors finally completely dispensed with the notion that babies can be operated on with out anesthetic because 'they don't feel pain'... It was a bigger thing back in the 50s, but some kept the belief through the 70s. Not super relevant, but just one of those things that I find interesting!