Laidlaw's belief in Rinne

[captaincrunch32]

Please, I say this joking around, but when does it become professional fantasy hockey malpractice to recommend holding onto Rinne as Laidlaw does in today's Ramblings? To me, Rinne hasn't been the same since he injured his knee last January. More concerning is his seemingly reckless play. He's seems to be taking way too many chances outside of the crease and his positioning has not been consistent. Watching the games, it seems that he's ok even strength....but when the Preds go into penalty kill mode, that's when it hits the fan. Maybe he's trying to do too much because the Preds penalty kill is dreadful but, even if that is the excuse, it is what it is. While owners with Rinne have been struggling with the guy (how can you bench him?) they have seen other owners get by with waiver wire pick ups like Hellboy, Domingue, etc. I am certainly not advocating replacing Rinne with WW guys long term but in leagues with daily line-up moves it has to be a consideration until Nashville turns the corner.

[havanablast21]

I hear ya.

I had Rinne... traded him away during the lost season when he went down with the Hip issue. Saw him come back and post fantasy Vezina worth numbers. SO I re-acquired this season... Sigh.

Not to mention my other G's are Bob

Atleast Crawford just creeped past Holtby for best Fantasy G in our league (by a couple points). But I'm really starting to think I need to trade away Bob or Rinne. But for who?

[Pengwin7]

This post kind of seems like a mix of two things:

1. Rinne has sub-par stats this year... and that makes fantasy GMs counting on him feel... frustrated.
2. When a GM watches a guy that they are ready to nitpick (Fan Nitpick Favourties over the years: Mike Green... or Erik Karlsson... or Crosby...) anything that doesn't go right gets magnified.

[I kind of don't agree with the OP that Rinne might be "wreckless" or "out-of-position" when the Preds are killing penalties. Like he decided to play differently on the penalty-kill this year... or that he is playing differently on the PK because of injury... but that's he OK at even-strength. Say that a few times over to yourself and let me know if it feels silly... it sounds silly to me.]

I just watched the five WPG goals.
I don't see these being Rinne's fault, perhaps the OT goal, but that is a snipe - a hard save for any.

Goal #1: Buff. Ribeiro doesn't stay with him Buff after the initial shot. That's frustrating for a goalie. Ribs is a nice offensive player, but he does have these kinds of lapses.

Goal #2: Wheeler. Ekholm (14) can't get a puck out short-handed... that's unacceptable.That puts WPG 3-on-2 and goalies can't stop that.

Goal #3: Buff. You know how people like to nitpick a D when they make mistakes. The fun/popular thing to do is nitpick the more offensive-defenseman... because it discredits them from Norris trophy consideration. The bigger defenseman that usually don't rush, those guys are always seen as solid two-way D men worth of the Norris. Except they have their moments of awfulness too. Case-in-point, Roman Josi. This is just weak, weak, weak for a top-tier defenseman to think that a little hand-slash is gonna stop a guy like Buff. Rub him and ride him around the net. Not only Josi, but the big (Norris-praised-constantly) Shea Weber looks lost in front of the net on this goal as well. Weber and Josi are -7 & -6 this year... but I'm sure that can't possibly be their fault since both are big-burly perfectly defensive-defenseman type looking D men that are just ALWAYS good. [This is me ranting about how so many people think the bigger-type defensemen never make mistakes in their own zone. They do. As often as the offensive-D-men, they make mistakes too.]

Goal #4: Ehlers. Yuck. This one is on Craig Smith & Ekholm (& Ellis in a minor bit). Most are only going to point at Ekholm as losing track of Ehlers breakinig up ice. But Craig Smith is not helping on this play. It does not good for a winger (Smith) to be that deep and he decides it's important to stick with - Mark Stuart! - like THAT'S a break-out threat!!! Leaves the whole side of ice open for stretch pass, Ellis steps up to put pressure on Ladd (and for those knocking Ladd recently, this touch pass is GORGEOUS from the Captain, gor-geous!).

Goal #5: Wheeler. Ask a goalie about hard saves to make. They'll list the Wheeler shot. Forward coming across the ice, shooting across his body, back to the far goalie-blocker side. That's a tough, tough save when a goalie has to track the player movement and then adjust to the puck going counter to his motion. If that corner is picked - as Wheeler does - it's not stoppable. A guy has to have a super-trigger chicken-wing elbow flick to get to where that puck is going while his body is moving the other way.

Anyways - to go back to Rinne... the coach is Laviolette, who is not the defensive-focused coach that Trotz was. (btw, how about WAS & Trotz still putting up the wins with Niskanen, Alzner and 4-patchwork D-men!!!)
I think Rinne isn't getting nearly the support from forwards this year and I don't think Weber-Josi have been at all that impressive this year defensively.
Combine that with Rinne not making a few saves that maybe (?) he could've made at full health.

Rough stretch for Nashville, which now has their best two-way center (Fisher) down on the 3rd line.
Their top two lines of wingers aren't exactly two-way players either.
This offensive-first mentality can get to a goalie and crumble his play a bit.

I still have faith in Rinne too.
It's the defensive play of the Nashville forwards that I think it porous this year... and yes, it's affecting everybody else.

(ps. I enjoyed owning Wheeler/Ladd/Buff in one pool last night. Mmmm, nice night for the team called Wheeler's Steel.)

[Dikoi]

Gotta agree with P7 here, just looking at the boxscore after the game doesn't tell the whole story, especially for goalies. I always look at the full highlights to see what happened exactly and Rinne didn't have much of a chance on any of the goals.

[captaincrunch32]

Pengwin...I like your analysis of the goals scored. But, it seems that there are excuses for bad goals every game. Every game is the same...3+ going in....all with an excuse. It may very well be a combination of things...the lack of offense, the poor penalty kill but that doesn't change the fact that unless all of those things hurting Nashville change, the situation is what it is. I think Rinne was at 1.98 before his injury last season and finished the season around 2.18. That means when he came back post injury, with roughly half a season left, he hadda post a 2.38+ GAA. He has up and down years. Some years are brilliant and some are pedestrian. This is a sub-pedestrian year. It just is what it is. When I watch the guy play, he seems reckless and careless, a dangerous combination. Maybe he and the team will turn it around, and with 3 years left on his contract and no one to challenge him, he will continue to be a workhorse. If you're in a keeper league, you haveta hold onto the guy for his potential. If you are in a one-year league, he should be on the pine until he's playing at home and/or based on the match up for the rest of the season.

[JagrBomb]

perfect time to buy low.

proven elite starter, he has a big contract, and not much competition to steal his job.

nashville's defense is too good for this to continue all season. their offense looks much better with johansen so i think he'll start putting up some great numbers soon.

[Pengwin7]

When I watch the guy play, he seems reckless and careless, a dangerous combination.

I'm willing to spend the time to verify opinions that are valid.
You say "when I watch the guy play".
Rattle off the last 5 or 6 games you watched Nashville play.
I'll watch the highlights (I will I promise)... and if I agree with you that Rinne has a "reckless" and "careless" problem that is new... I'll back you.

Just don't spend the next 30min googling the internet to see if there are any articles that might support your choice words.
Stand by your belief.
Tell me some games you watched that back this opinion.

[captaincrunch32]

Havanablast21...chances are you can still move Rinne on his name but what will you take back? Look at Bob's numbers pre-injury...1 goal a game but who will take a chance on a goalie with a groin injury? Any chance you can move a Rinne/Bob plus a better forward/D-man for a better goalie and a lesser forward/dman? We are getting to that point in the season where the GAA and SV PCT numbers start to not move as much. If you are good in those categories (and with the start Bob had and what Rinne is doing, I imagine you are not) then try to bring back a goalie who will get wins. Have you sniffed around to see who is available via trade?

[havanablast21]

Havanablast21...chances are you can still move Rinne on his name but what will you take back? Look at Bob's numbers pre-injury...1 goal a game but who will take a chance on a goalie with a groin injury? Any chance you can move a Rinne/Bob plus a better forward/D-man for a better goalie and a lesser forward/dman? We are getting to that point in the season where the GAA and SV PCT numbers start to not move as much. If you are good in those categories (and with the start Bob had and what Rinne is doing, I imagine you are not) then try to bring back a goalie who will get wins. Have you sniffed around to see who is available via trade?

Have not yet. My goalies continue to disappoint year in and year out. Doesn't matter what I do. When they're on my team they seem to suffer exented cold spells and/or injuries. Applicable for all 3 last year.

My D is what's holding my team in contention (bouncing back and forth between 2nd and 3rd). Just hoping Bob returns for his usual 2nd half surge then I may be able to bench Rinne until an improvement / consistency is evident. Still waiting on my Stars to actually Play like Stars.

[captaincrunch32]

Pengwin7...I did not watch last night's Nashville game. I watched the game before that, against Chi. He did not look good in the Chicago game. He routinely came way out of the net to play the puck. Again, it might be a situation where he's trying to force a play since the offense is stagnant. There were other games where I questioned his positioning and his play outside the crease.

[Rato]

went down with the Hip issue. Saw him come back and post fantasy Vezina worth numbers.

To be honest I think we'll se this exactly same thing again.

[Pengwin7]

I watched the game before that, against Chi. He did not look good in the Chicago game. He routinely came way out of the net to play the puck.

I just watched the 4:44 highlights over at NHL.com of the NAS-CHI game.
I thought he looked good, lots of smooth movement.

The 1st CHI goal wasn't his fault, Ellis basically trying to push Shaw out of the crease and gets in Rinne's way of getting back centered in the net.
Honestly, Ellis is just not strong enough to move Shaw completely out here, I'd say that one is on Ellis.
Play is a big part Ekholm's fault. Ekholm does a terrible job of putting a body on Hossa after initial shot, allowing Hossa to re-gain possession.

The 2nd CHI goal... again, this is more of crappy NAS forwards & a bit-too-gentle D-play by NAS. Ry-Jo gets just plain bullied-over by Hossa at the blueline... then Hossa does the same thing to Weber that he did to Ekholm, shoots the puck past him and then goes and picks up the rebound with the NAS defender (Weber this time) NOT getting a body on Hossa. Rinne is doing his job by getting over on Hossa for both the inital shot (1sv) and possible follow-up. The big issue with this play is that NAS needs a forward back to pick up the 3rd CHI forward. [This is effin ROUTINE/BASIC hockey-coverage, coaches teach this at Novice/Atom... this is officially the center's job to pick up 3rd opposing forward... but Ry-Jo gets bullied, remember, and then comes back into no-man's land. For people that LOVE to analyze hockey, just get to the point just before Hossa centers this puck. Look at the NAS forwards - they are ALL in bad spots, 92-RyJo is practically on a face-off-dot - he should be headed towards front of net, #38 Arvidsson is there... but wingers are often lazy bitches (sorry #DefensemanRant) that do little turns and can't stop when they NEED to stop... like IN FRONT OF THE NET!!! And #15 Craig Smith at least comes down to help on Shaw... but Smith is too late with his lazy little lunge when the puck is on Shaw's stick. BTW - Shaw, pretty solid player, he knows where to go... he knows his role... and that's why he gets that LW1 spot. Oh - and for anybody that wonders what makes Ry-Jo a doghouse player sometimes... this is the play that happens... often. Coaches hate. this. shit.

***This is the play. This is the play where a (casual) fan will get frustrated with Rinne because he looks like he's WAY out of the net. And he loses his stick getting back. This is where the feeling is coming from. This looks "reckless" and "careless" (I'm guessing) to you... it's not. He's out of the net because his new golden-boy Center got bullied and his Norris-level stud-D man got burned by the Hossa shot-n-follow. If he doesn't bust ass over, Hossa is gonna tuck that in or shelf it himsefl. *** I'm telling you my opinion... from playing hockey for many, many years... this is not Rinne's fault. The puck was centered 6 feet from the net and the first player there was Shaw - unmarked. It's a goal... it's a goal whether Rinne is still on the post or if he is flailing to get back... it's still a goal... it just "looks" worse by his body language... but it's gonna be a goal.

The 3rd CHI goal. Arvidsson. I guarantee he got absolutely REAMED after the game for this. He has too much speed headed towards Seabrook and gets BURNED. Burned when Seabrook does the one-touch pass & shoot w/Pat Kane. No goalie can stop a snapshot like Seabrook makes here, it can't be read. You position your body and hope you get hit. Rinne's in perfect position, but the shot (low blocker corner, on ice) is pretty much unstoppable when placed where it is. Also consider that Rinne is shifting to one side where the puck goes and Seabrook puts put on far side. Impossible save at Seabrook's shot speed - similar to the Wheeler OT snipe.


Another thing to take away from these highlights: Marian Hossa. Awesome.
Still a beast. Still.

[captaincrunch32]

And, there were plays were he looked spectacular. The one play in particular I was thinking of, he came way out of the crease but it did not lead to a goal because I think Shaw was too far behind the net to corral either pass or the rebound. Look, for Nashville fans and Rinne owners (except those in the leagues I'm in, of course) I hope the guy turns it around. But, until then, if you own the guy, you do haveta consider benching him....with the full knowledge that when you do he will post consecutive shut-outs on your bench.

[Mater]

AND this is why I am here at Dobber, I have Rinne and love to see the debates and varying opinions. This is extremely helpful all, keep up the great discussion.

Debate and disagreement is how we learn and get better.

Captian - Great job opening the discussion,

Pen as usual thanks for the detail.

Cheers all

[Dobber]

Pengwin...I like your analysis of the goals scored. But, it seems that there are excuses for bad goals every game. Every game is the same...3+ going in....all with an excuse. It may very well be a combination of things...the lack of offense, the poor penalty kill but that doesn't change the fact that unless all of those things hurting Nashville change, the situation is what it is. I think Rinne was at 1.98 before his injury last season and finished the season around 2.18. That means when he came back post injury, with roughly half a season left, he hadda post a 2.38+ GAA. He has up and down years. Some years are brilliant and some are pedestrian. This is a sub-pedestrian year. It just is what it is. When I watch the guy play, he seems reckless and careless, a dangerous combination. Maybe he and the team will turn it around, and with 3 years left on his contract and no one to challenge him, he will continue to be a workhorse. If you're in a keeper league, you haveta hold onto the guy for his potential. If you are in a one-year league, he should be on the pine until he's playing at home and/or based on the match up for the rest of the season.

There's going to be a lot of excuses for goals now because of the coaching style. With Trotz, everything was stopped. Shots were kept down and chances weren't as good. Rinne will still get the wins but his SV% will never be the same again IMO. But the time to trade him is after a winning streak not in the midst of this slump

$7 million for each of the next three years after this one tells me that he'll get 80% of the starts until 2018 at the least. And that alone is reason enough find value in him. But it boils down to what the rules of your league are. Mine just assigns points for wins, losses. OTL, saves and GA. A formula. So he's not so bad