The Norris isn’t enough: Why Erik Karlsson deserves to win the Hart Trophy

[Big Ev]

Karlsson is an incredible talent. What he is doing this year is jaw dropping. Karlsson certainly has a good argument for the award. Also, I dont like the thought of Kane getting the Hart after what happened in the summer. That doesn't sit right with me.




That is a very generous appraisal of Bobby Ryan.

70 points in today's NHL makes you elite and that's what he's gonna finish with this season. He's proven he's elite for years now (couple of injury plagued or so-so years in between) and is making the money elite players get, for good reason.

Elite doesn't equal superstar in my books.

[Big Ev]

In terms of the Norris trophy? Correct they don't. In terms of evaluating players and winning games, well, there is a reason they are behind the bench and you are behind a keyboard. I'd say they know a hting or two.

You are now just arguing for the sake of arguing. Let it go. We are LITERALLY talking about the Norris trophy so I could not care less about a coaches poll when talking about who will win the Norris (and there are a lot of dumb/biased coaches and managers out there, make no mistake). The media will vote for Karlsson, they can't not at this point. It would make them look really bad if Doughty wins it when Karlsson has almost twice the amount of points.

Twice as many. 100% more.

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This is way, way off topic, so I'll just reply once.

I dont care if he was charged or not. Also, I am not persecuting anyone. I didn't say that he shouldn't get it. I said that I dont like the thought of it. Its just how I feel on the subject. End of.

Yup there's no question he's a **** off the ice.

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This is way, way off topic, so I'll just reply once.

I dont care if he was charged or not. Also, I am not persecuting anyone. I didn't say that he shouldn't get it. I said that I dont like the thought of it. Its just how I feel on the subject. End of.

Yup there's no question he's a **** off the ice.

[hockeyrobot]

The point is hockey discussions. Don't like it, go away. I have been having great debates with people being respectful the entire time. Of course I will disagree that's the point of a debate. Why would I agree when that isn't my opinion.

This is a public forum and you don't need to participate or read if you don't want to

Just saying...you're always debating one side no matter what. I haven't been around for a while and came back on recently see the Stone thread and this one and knew exactly why they were 5 pages long.

[JohnScott AllStarMVP]

If Karlsson reaches 80 points and the senator make the playoff, the Hart is automatic

[Slug]

Bobby Ryan is a good player. Elite? This is a player who hasn't scored more than 57 points since 2010-2011. I shouldn't even check in to Sens threads because of the terrible bias that runs rampant in them lol. Having a good season so far but he will either get injured or just cool off before he hits 70 points.

[chuckcouples]

Here's my question for all of you Karlsson should win the Norris Trophy people:

Why would Karlsson deserve the Norris over Brent Burns? The dman who has scored 18 goals and has 22 assists on the season has done a lot more offensively than the guy who has 9 goals and 36 assists.

Let's update the numbers. Karlsson now has 78 games played, 15 goals, 63 assists (33 first assists) and is even in +/- which is 5th best among Sens dmen with 50+ games played. Burns now has 78 games played, 27 goals, 46 assists (24 first assists) and is -6 which is 6th best among Sharks dmen with 50+ games played. That's 5 less points, 6 less in +/- but 12 more goals while helping his team make the playoffs.

Why should Karlsson win the Norris?

If you still think he should win the Norris, check out his home/away splits. At home his coach decides the matchup he gets while on the road, the opposing coach makes those decisions.

Home
39GP, 11G, 34A, +18

Away
39GP, 4G, 29A, -18

Burns splits are

Home
39GP, 12G, 26A, -10

Away
39GP, 15G, 20A, +4

[JohnScott AllStarMVP]

Let's update the numbers. Karlsson now has 78 games played, 15 goals, 63 assists (33 first assists) and is even in +/- which is 5th best among Sens dmen with 50+ games played. Burns now has 78 games played, 27 goals, 46 assists (24 first assists) and is -6 which is 6th best among Sharks dmen with 50+ games played. That's 5 less points, 6 less in +/- but 12 more goals while helping his team make the playoffs.

Why should Karlsson win the Norris?

If you still think he should win the Norris, check out his home/away splits. At home his coach decides the matchup he gets while on the road, the opposing coach makes those decisions.

Home
39GP, 11G, 34A, +18

Away
39GP, 4G, 29A, -18

Burns splits are

Home
39GP, 12G, 26A, -10

Away
39GP, 15G, 20A, +4

nice post, you make a great case for burns.

[Big Ev]

Let's update the numbers. Karlsson now has 78 games played, 15 goals, 63 assists (33 first assists) and is even in +/- which is 5th best among Sens dmen with 50+ games played. Burns now has 78 games played, 27 goals, 46 assists (24 first assists) and is -6 which is 6th best among Sharks dmen with 50+ games played. That's 5 less points, 6 less in +/- but 12 more goals while helping his team make the playoffs.

Why should Karlsson win the Norris?

If you still think he should win the Norris, check out his home/away splits. At home his coach decides the matchup he gets while on the road, the opposing coach makes those decisions.

Home
39GP, 11G, 34A, +18

Away
39GP, 4G, 29A, -18

Burns splits are

Home
39GP, 12G, 26A, -10

Away
39GP, 15G, 20A, +4

I agree that the only other d-man who deserves the Norris for this season's work (not a lifetime achievement award) is Brent Burns. I don't understand why Doughty gets all the love and he doesn't. For me Karlsson still absolutely deserves the Norris. This is his best season yet. Plus minus doesn't matter at all and it's not something to use to compare players. Lidstrom won it with a minus rating one year. Also don't care that his team didn't make the playoffs. That's important for the Hart IMO, not awards like Norris. Here's why Burns doesn't deserve it over Karlsson:

You're not factoring in teammates at all, especially playmakers who can boost Burns' goal totals. Burns heavily benefits from the players he plays with. Especially Joe Thornton who does nothing but pass the puck. I'm not an advanced stats guy really but this stat was interesting: The Sharks' 5v5 GF60 goes from 3.93 when Burns is on the ice with Joe Thornton to 1.80 when Burns is on but away from Thornton.

Burns plays with TWO teammates who are in the Top 6 in NHL scoring. That is massive for an offensive d-man's numbers. That also doesn't include Logan Couture. Meanwhile Karlsson plays with 1 player in the Top 30 in points, and 2 in the top 50 in points. Karlsson's forwards are good, Stone is fantastic, but he does not get as much support for pure point production. Think about what I just wrote for a second. Karlsssn has had no true superstar support boosting his points yet has 78 points already. He leads the league in assists with only 1 Top 20 teammate. When Bobby Orr won the award there were two or three of his teammates in the top 5 in scoring. The only players in history to lead the league in assists are Orr and Karlsson.

Burns also is supported by a fantastic d-man in Vlasic. Ottawa has no other d-man close to Vlasic to help Karlsson. Karlsson has to do all the work. He leads the league in ice-time and plays all situations. So his plus minus doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to anyone. It's a bad stat because I'm pretty sure Jared Cowen was leading the Sens in plus minus before he was traded. It's meaningless.

IMO Burns also isn't as good defensively as Karlsson. He plays more like a forward then Karlsson does (although neither do and that argument is always BS when it's used against offensive D like Karlsson). He was literally a forward before. People will think he's better defensively because he's bigger and Canadian. He plays like Byfuglien. Put Byfuglien on SJ and he will put up similar totals.

Burns will most likely finish 3rd in voting although he is better than Doughty this season. I think Burns' season is similar to Green's from a few years back where he had Semin, Ovechkin, and Backstrom propping his point totals.

[Big Ev]

and for the record, no Karlsson doesn't deserve the Hart. I would vote for Crosby if I had a vote.

[Pengwin7]

I think it's going to be a really close vote this year.
My top three are Doughty, Burns, Karlsson... at this point... but it's going to be really close.
Karlsson is most impressive by pure scoring, but least impressive of the three defensively (esp. 2nd half of season, thought the D was a bit lacking)
Burns is very impressive in 2nd half as Sharks have surged.
For me, it's all about scoring more goals than you give up and Doughty has best +/- and an insane shot differential (Corsi). He should hit the magic 50pt mark and team should hit 100+pts.

As for the real deserving guy... I don't care... I think these guys are as tight as three players have been in recent years... they all have influence from teammates that help/hurt their stats.

[Big Ev]

I think it's going to be a really close vote this year.
My top three are Doughty, Burns, Karlsson... at this point... but it's going to be really close.
Karlsson is most impressive by pure scoring, but least impressive of the three defensively (esp. 2nd half of season, thought the D was a bit lacking)
Burns is very impressive in 2nd half as Sharks have surged.
For me, it's all about scoring more goals than you give up and Doughty has best +/- and an insane shot differential (Corsi). He should hit the magic 50pt mark and team should hit 100+pts.

As for the real deserving guy... I don't care... I think these guys are as tight as three players have been in recent years... they all have influence from teammates that help/hurt their stats.

Plus minus is going to favour Doughty because his team plays a defensive structure and they are very good. It's a team stat through and through.

I bet on both Karlsson and Doughty to win the Norris so I'm good either way, really.

[Axeman33]

I'll be very surprised if Letang isn't on the short list as well.

[2014olympicgold]

Karlsson 78pts, Ottawa 222GF, Karlsson is a part of 35% of the goals for Ottawa, and only scored 6.8% of Ottawa’s goals. 83Hits, 165Bocks, 55TA, 93GA. 29:03ATOI, 236SOG, +6.6CF% Rel, 55/45 Offensive zone/Defensive zone starts

Burns has 73pts, Sharks 230GF, Burns is a part of 31.7% of the Sharks goals, and has scored 11.7% of the Sharks goals. 97Hits, 136Blocks, 52TA, 98GA. 25:58ATOI. 337SOG, -0.8CF% Rel, 50/50 Offensive zone/Defensive zone starts

You can make a case on either I think for the Norris. But because the Sharks are going to make the playoffs, I think the edge goes to Burns.

[JohnScott AllStarMVP]

I agree that the only other d-man who deserves the Norris for this season's work (not a lifetime achievement award) is Brent Burns. I don't understand why Doughty gets all the love and he doesn't. For me Karlsson still absolutely deserves the Norris. This is his best season yet. Plus minus doesn't matter at all and it's not something to use to compare players. Lidstrom won it with a minus rating one year. Also don't care that his team didn't make the playoffs. That's important for the Hart IMO, not awards like Norris. Here's why Burns doesn't deserve it over Karlsson:

You're not factoring in teammates at all, especially playmakers who can boost Burns' goal totals. Burns heavily benefits from the players he plays with. Especially Joe Thornton who does nothing but pass the puck. I'm not an advanced stats guy really but this stat was interesting: The Sharks' 5v5 GF60 goes from 3.93 when Burns is on the ice with Joe Thornton to 1.80 when Burns is on but away from Thornton.

Burns plays with TWO teammates who are in the Top 6 in NHL scoring. That is massive for an offensive d-man's numbers. That also doesn't include Logan Couture. Meanwhile Karlsson plays with 1 player in the Top 30 in points, and 2 in the top 50 in points. Karlsson's forwards are good, Stone is fantastic, but he does not get as much support for pure point production. Think about what I just wrote for a second. Karlsssn has had no true superstar support boosting his points yet has 78 points already. He leads the league in assists with only 1 Top 20 teammate. When Bobby Orr won the award there were two or three of his teammates in the top 5 in scoring. The only players in history to lead the league in assists are Orr and Karlsson.

Burns also is supported by a fantastic d-man in Vlasic. Ottawa has no other d-man close to Vlasic to help Karlsson. Karlsson has to do all the work. He leads the league in ice-time and plays all situations. So his plus minus doesn't matter and shouldn't matter to anyone. It's a bad stat because I'm pretty sure Jared Cowen was leading the Sens in plus minus before he was traded. It's meaningless.

IMO Burns also isn't as good defensively as Karlsson. He plays more like a forward then Karlsson does (although neither do and that argument is always BS when it's used against offensive D like Karlsson). He was literally a forward before. People will think he's better defensively because he's bigger and Canadian. He plays like Byfuglien. Put Byfuglien on SJ and he will put up similar totals.

Burns will most likely finish 3rd in voting although he is better than Doughty this season. I think Burns' season is similar to Green's from a few years back where he had Semin, Ovechkin, and Backstrom propping his point totals.

yes but one could argue that thorntons and pavelski's success this season is in part due to the great play of Burns.

[2014olympicgold]

Karlsson’s Point Share (Kinda like the hockey WAR) is 11.4, Burns is 12.4. I think this is actually the closest Norris race between 2 of the like type of players. Before when Karlsson won you could say well the voters cared about points more, because he blew the competition out of the water. Now that there’s someone close to him in points, you look further into the stats, and time I do, they seem to be splitting it.

Karlsson has this, Burns has that, Karlsson has this, Burns has that.