Dobber leagues - matched settings from next year?

[metaldude26]

I dropped out as a writer months ago due to being too busy, which was the same rationale for not logging into the experts league since December to check the standings or make any moves. My opinion should mean little as I won't be involved next year but it's interesting that this discussion started the day I checked in on the Experts League.

MD - you seem to be taking Rizz's feedback a bit personally here, maybe because you are the commish and decided on the settings, which obviously you favor. I don't think anyone is suggesting the time you put into organizing the league this year is not appreciated.

In saying that, I agree with Rizz to an extent. Even though his example was 'hyperbolic', his argument made sense. You have 3rd liners who are equal in value to top line players with the set up being how it is. In regards to transactions, there are going to be tons of injuries - meaning there will be cycling, 25 moves is a lot. Also, trades barely happen in leagues like this. It's a free one-year league, there isn't much incentive for guys to get that involved in 'trade discussion' if their team is out of it by the half way point. It's not like guys are making trades to build for next year or to get draft picks for the following year. Trading and one-year leagues, especially with no money involved = blah. Great draft + Few Injuries + Most Active = winner, usually.

As for the yahoo/CBS argument - yahoo is atrocious. Would it really be a big ask for Dobber's site to pony up $100/year to host the league on a better site with settings that are more flexible. Seriously, like Rizz stated, you guys put in 10 hours/week writing etc for free - or for a token stipend when writing for the guide. Is $100 that much to ask for here.....

The reason guys are not chiming in, is because this league (even if it is the 'Experts League') is priority 138 in their lives, and like Rizz said it's not a "main league" for people. Everyone here had their 'main leagues' long before joining this site in any capacity. I'm in four money leagues, and play DFS from time to time - that will always take priority over a one year league like this. Rizz's argument in that respect makes sense.

And to suggest Rizz is 'making excuses' or 'bowing out' is beyond ridiculous. It would be like him saying you're not flexible and the settings need to be your way with no input or feedback from anyone, just because "you're running the league". Seriously, just take his posts as feedback rather than getting so defensive man.

Anyway - I hope you guys figure it out, and good luck next year, and again a genuine thank you MD for organizing this year - as it is a lot of work and I think all 11 guys do appreciate the time you put in.

This post is beyond frustrating.

Why can't I ask questions/debate something while also being open to the possibility of being wrong? Asking for evidence/further explanations is a part of the process.

And to be clear THIS post is certainly defensive because YOU just made this personal by making assumptions about where I'm coming from.

[RizzeeDizzee]

This post is beyond frustrating.

Why can't I ask questions/debate something while also being open to the possibility of being wrong? Asking for evidence/further explanations is a part of the process.

And to be clear THIS post is certainly defensive because YOU just made this personal by making assumptions about where I'm coming from.

Wow, just wow. MX's post was fair and reasonable, and I'm not saying that because he agrees with me. Eric's have been too. But yours - that's another story, and a bit concerning coming from the #2 guy at the site. Read what they wrote and compare it your posts - do that from a detached viewpoint.

And LOL at how you keep tossing out lack of "evidence". He made a case in point about the league allowing certain third liners are more valuable than top 30 scorers. And he pointed out the death of trades this season. You can argue against this evidence, but newsflash - it's evidence.

How about this - get each of the 11 experts to post their preference for settings and rules and see if something can be cobbled together that represents a utilitarian set-up? My guess is a lot of what's currently in place won't be championed, but why not find out for sure? Of course the big issue would be to get all 11 to respond, which, if it doesn't happen, would reflect as negatively about the current set up as a response that actually says it's lousy.

As for this thread, maybe it's best to lock it up before things get said which can't easily be unsaid.

[MXHockey]

This post is beyond frustrating.

Why can't I ask questions/debate something while also being open to the possibility of being wrong? Asking for evidence/further explanations is a part of the process.

And to be clear THIS post is certainly defensive because YOU just made this personal by making assumptions about where I'm coming from.

How was it making assumptions or making this personal for agreeing with someone? And I didn't say 'you are' taking his feedback personally just because you set the league up. I suggested it, just like you 'suggested' Rizz wants to 'bow out'.

Rizz has been respectful in his feedback. You basically made this personal and said 'he is making excuses' to 'bow out'. That's not an assumption - that's what you said even after he pointed out his life and family commitments - which maybe other people can relate to and may be a reason to at least look at some adjustments in the league set up.

You said there is 'no money' to go the CBS route. You didn't even consider his idea or respond by saying you would look into it. Why not look into it? You can't tell me a $100/year investment on behalf of writers that give a TON of their own time is that big of a deal.

Look at the league - half of the guys have basically switched to auto-pilot. There are no trades, no action. You don't have to look that hard to see it.

You could argue about league settings and 'cycling' in this format all day. There is relevance to both sides of your respective arguments. For one side to say they are completely right would be ridiculous.

The thing that is obvious - is your tone is by far the most defensive in this thread. Maybe it's time to lock this down and take it offline.

[horrorfan]

I'd love to see it but again it comes down to having someone grab the bull by the horns to make this happen. Right now our setup involves the "oh shit the season starts in a week and we don't have an Experts League yet" post followed by someone agreeing to organize everything followed by hopefully many staff members joining. No chance to bring in Pro League standouts or even ensure that the various leagues are consistent in that timeframe.

If someone steps up then anything is possible. I'll continue being in the Experts League but cannot be that guy that steps up due to already being stretched very thin from the various roles that I have at the site.

One area where I could help is creating pages to post the leaderboards of the various leagues over the years. That would be a start if we can get this thing rocking again.

Yeah I remember when it started this season that you guys said it was quick and last minute, which in part (I guess) resulted in the Pro winner not being invited up. As we are discussing it now, perhaps this is the perfect opportunity to plan ahead and get more interest.

That's a good idea, and could be used in part during some ramblings to increase the exposure and perhaps create some early interest in next year. I can give you the Pro details and I could find out from the Entry leagues (there are threads on all three). Pengwin had been good as keeping everyone updated but he hasn't been around lately so probably a bit busy these days.

I'd help when I can but given you guys are in the expert division and know the guys involved, it would probably help to gauge the interest level going into next year. Do you think that's possible? That way, we could see how much work needs to be done to recruit how many (other writers?) and then see how the linkage to the Pro division will take shape.

It needs to be someone's baby because at least at the Expert level we are dealing with a bunch of folks who never really had much involvement from the get go. Not sure if you've seen it but the writer turnover the past couple of years has been sizeable. So the reason the Expert league was so diminished was because A) it was so last minute and disorganized B) so many new writers didn't really know what the league was all about.

Maybe it doesn't have to be someone's baby but it does require a steadier hand at the wheel than my own. I've already invested more into that league that I have the desire to do.

Please see Eric's comment and my response - perhaps there's something that can be done to get the ball rolling a little bit, without requiring too much effort. As it's early, a few steps to increase the exposure and gauge interest might be all that's needed to get started. I'll help when I can.

[horrorfan]

How about this - get each of the 11 experts to post their preference for settings and rules and see if something can be cobbled together that represents a utilitarian set-up? My guess is a lot of what's currently in place won't be championed, but why not find out for sure? Of course the big issue would be to get all 11 to respond, which, if it doesn't happen, would reflect as negatively about the current set up as a response that actually says it's lousy.

As for this thread, maybe it's best to lock it up before things get said which can't easily be unsaid.

First of all, please DO NOT lock this thread. I created it to gauge interest in how to make the tier system better. Even though there is a bit of a heated discussion going on, there are some valuable points being presented. If you're afraid of things being said that can't easily be unsaid, then I suggest you have that discussion privately.

As for the suggestion to get the 11 managers preferences, this is exactly what I had asked earlier in this thread. This is important to find out how much work needs done going into next year.

Please let's keep the focus on the real intention of this thread and keep it constructive.

[ericdaoust]

I'll say this as someone that has been in the Experts League for three years: the problem with lack of activity was very much present in the previous two years as well. To an extent that's the nature of one-year leagues. Once you fall out it's easy to throw in the towel and stop trying.

Note: I see no reason to lock this. Nothing has really happened. Heated discussions are not necessarily inappropriate.

[horrorfan]

My opinion on switching providers, I think it will be a difficult sell. Yes, you guys need to find the right setup for your needs and likely we (Pro/Entry) need to adjust. However, many people in these leagues have been using Yahoo for years. If the Expert goes CBS, I'm not sure there will be enough interest among the rest of us that would be interested going that route. The result would, in my opinion, create more disjoint between divisions. I could be wrong, but it's just my (un)educated opinion based on experience in these leagues and what I perceive might be the case.

[metaldude26]

To address some things. I'm not disagreeing with the notion that this league isn't a priority for anyone. I've been arguing that case plenty. I've also clearly indicated that I'd rather someone else take control who has more time to dedicate to it. A steadier hand on the wheel. That would benefit all involved.

As for the hyperbolic arguments about player value. It's foolish because it's an inaccurate representation of what is actually happening. Check out the top 25 for skater value according to FantasyHockeyGeek:

Ovechkin, Giroux, Pavelski, Crosby, Tavares, Pacioretty, Letang, Backstrom, Karlsson, Foligno, Seguin, T. Johnson, Byfuglien, Stamkos, Malkin, Kane, Ladd, Burns, Weber, Forsberg, Benn, Zetterberg, Couture, Nash, Getzlaf.

Is that out of whack with what you'd see in other setups?

How about Yahoo!'s rating system:

Ovechkin, Tavares, Voracek, Tarasenko, Giroux, Crosby, Pacioretty, Malkin, Pavelski, Nash, Backstrom, Stamkos, Johnson, Letang, Foligno, Seguin, Karlsson, Ladd, Getzlaf, Kane, Benn, Kucherov, Steen, Byfuglien, Zetterberg.

Again, is this out of whack with what we should see under more "balanced" scoring?

Apparently Craig Smith's value/ranking is a bit too high for some folks. Well he ranks 75th in Yahoo! under this scoring and 73rd by FHG. Admittedly, that is higher than where he places in league scoring (T104th) but gains because of positional scarcity as a RW and because of value as a goal-scorer and shot producer. Even if shots were undervalued he'd still see boosts because of position and goal production. I still don't see why his value is an inherent problem.

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Maybe this argument of cycling is one of definition. I view cycling as picking up players as often as possible to achieve an advantage in games played volume over everyone else that cannot be achieved without cycling. Maybe you guys are viewing injury replacements as cycling? I don't. If everyone has a limit of 82 games per position then there's no advantage to be gained by cycling. However you get to your 82 games, no one gets an advantage.

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Yahoo! is atrocious? Really? I'm not beholden to Yahoo! I just know that it's really simple for simple leagues like this. And yes, asking for $100 for a premium site would be egregious because it's unnecessary.

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I agree with your argument about there being little incentive for trading in one-year leagues with not much for a prize. Certainly the easiest path to victory is "great draft+few injuries+most active". Well games played reduces some of the impact of "most active" but reducing the amount of FA moves only further increases the impact of "great draft" and "few injuries". I don't see the solution here being structure based. I see it as incentive based.

Again, I don't see myself as the guy to take this thing by the horns and create that incentive for others. It's not my thing. I've been a place-holder, that's it. And I'll invest to make the league better. I feel like I've already done that. I'm just not going to do EVERYTHING that has been mentioned.

If there was going to be some sort of capital invested in this league then it should go towards incentives not towards "upgrading" the site used. And I don't think that capital actually needs to be invested here. Just time and pride.

[RizzeeDizzee]

Again, I don't see myself as the guy to take this thing by the horns and create that incentive for others. It's not my thing. I've been a place-holder, that's it. And I'll invest to make the league better. I feel like I've already done that. I'm just not going to do EVERYTHING that has been mentioned.

I'll see about replying to the rest later, but for now I'll focus on this tidbit.

Unless I'm mistaken, you've now essentially stepped into the exact shoes Jeff Angus had before he left the site in that you handle editing and ramblings four days a week. Yet I believe his contribution to coverage of the league was easily triple what you've done in terms of articles, mentions in Ramblings, etc. I know I wasn't in the experts league back then because I wasn't a writer. But I deeply enjoyed the coverage and, upon entering the league, was excited to be part of the atmosphere and excitement. My gaining entry also happened to coincide with Angus' departure, and the rest - as they say - is history.

Do you even remember who took the time and effort to post the draft results in the forums? I'll give you a hint - his forum nickname rhymes with fizzeebizzee.

Don't get me wrong - do you have a duty to do what Angus did? No, not unless you or Dobber decide upon that. But given the shoes you stepped into, I don't think you can say this with a straight face.

[metaldude26]

I'll see about replying to the rest later, but for now I'll focus on this tidbit.

Unless I'm mistaken, you've now essentially stepped into the exact shoes Jeff Angus had before he left the site in that you handle editing and ramblings four days a week. Yet I believe his contribution to coverage of the league was easily triple what you've done in terms of articles, mentions in Ramblings, etc. I know I wasn't in the experts league back then because I wasn't a writer. But I deeply enjoyed the coverage and, upon entering the league, was excited to be part of the atmosphere and excitement. My gaining entry also happened to coincide with Angus' departure, and the rest - as they say - is history.

Do you even remember who took the time and effort to post the draft results in the forums? I'll give you a hint - his forum nickname rhymes with fizzeebizzee.

Don't get me wrong - do you have a duty to do what Angus did? No, not unless you or Dobber decide upon that. But given the shoes you stepped into, I don't think you can say this with a straight face.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not Angus. If that's the standard I'm being held to then I'm afraid I'll always leave you disappointed. For the record though, I believe he was three times a week while I'm four so the time invested on my part to my actual duties is greater.

Yeah, you posted the draft results to the forum. I certainly wasn't going to do it. I invested as much as I was willing to get the draft up and running and to edit the rules. And that's my point. I'm not the guy to overarchingly run this league.

[metaldude26]

My opinion on switching providers, I think it will be a difficult sell. Yes, you guys need to find the right setup for your needs and likely we (Pro/Entry) need to adjust. However, many people in these leagues have been using Yahoo for years. If the Expert goes CBS, I'm not sure there will be enough interest among the rest of us that would be interested going that route. The result would, in my opinion, create more disjoint between divisions. I could be wrong, but it's just my (un)educated opinion based on experience in these leagues and what I perceive might be the case.

THIS.

[MXHockey]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not Angus.

Just be yourself!

[metaldude26]

Just be yourself!

Apparently that's not good enough.

[RizzeeDizzee]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not Angus. If that's the standard I'm being held to then I'm afraid I'll always leave you disappointed. For the record though, I believe he was three times a week while I'm four so the time invested on my part to my actual duties is greater.

Yeah, you posted the draft results to the forum. I certainly wasn't going to do it. I invested as much as I was willing to get the draft up and running and to edit the rules. And that's my point. I'm not the guy to overarchingly run this league.

Then how about you just explain the bolded portion of the language I quoted from you:

"I don't see myself as the guy to take this thing by the horns and create that incentive for others. It's not my thing. I've been a place-holder, that's it. And I'll invest to make the league better. I feel like I've already done that. I'm just not going to do EVERYTHING that has been mentioned."

If you don't want to post draft results, don't want to write columns about the league, don't want to mention the league in your ramblings, and don't have tolerance for input about league rules/settings that's not aligned with your own, then tell me how exactly you'll "invest to make the league better"? Cuz from where I sit, you seem hell bent on doing just the opposite.

[RizzeeDizzee]

I'll say this as someone that has been in the Experts League for three years: the problem with lack of activity was very much present in the previous two years as well. To an extent that's the nature of one-year leagues. Once you fall out it's easy to throw in the towel and stop trying.

Note: I see no reason to lock this. Nothing has really happened. Heated discussions are not necessarily inappropriate.

Further support for my point that as Angus wound down, this league went into a downward spiral. If only there was someone who edited the site a few days a week who could step in and do something like what Angus had.....