Dobber leagues - matched settings from next year?

[metaldude26]

I take strong exception to this, as if I wanted to bow out I would've done so prior to this season. Questioning my commitment is something that really pushes my buttons. I spend 10 hours on this site every week between the column, the forums, and this league. That's on top of a full time job (as an attorney), plus with two kids 10 and under (one of whom has crohns disease and the other PDD-NOS), and a wife who works 50+ hours a week as well.

Frankly, I think the league settings and rules are lousy. There - I said it. The fact that other categories (particularly SOG and +/-) count the same as Goals and Assists is ridiculous. It should either be points only or there should be weighting. And while I don't like weekly moves in general, I'd prefer it over daily moves where there can be endless cycling in and out of players such that it becomes an exercise of schedule planning more than running a team skillfully. Sure - a "real" team can put players in and out of the line-up, but that's when all players are on the same team. In fantasy hockey it shouldn't be allowed. And FA moves should be limited - one per month, to reduce dart throwing and to make there be more insight involved in picking up players. Also, limiting FA moves encourages trading, which was sorely lacking from the league.

Rant over.

You already indicated that you didn't really want to jump in but did so as an obligation. I'm not arguing that you are just mailing in your participation. I think people are complex enough to be able to do something to the best of their ability even if they don't particularly want to. And like I said, you don't need an excuse to drop out if this isn't to your liking.

And I really don't think you understand the league at all. There's an 82 games played limit per position. That means "endless" cycling is impossible. There is literally an end to cycling. It comes when you've reached the games played limit. The only time you can get away with cycling is when you have an injury and happened not to change your lineup for a while and thus fell behind on games played. Cycling, schedule planning, these issues aren't real in this league. Not sure how you aren't grasping this.

Weighted scoring is a matter of personal preference. You might be able to argue to me that having something like game-winners or shutouts or shorties but what we've done is grabbed stats that are high event and reasonably projectable. You don't like those that's a personal preference and not an inherent flaw. This is and always has been a rotisserie league that's what people are signing up for. Points only or something weighted, that's another beast entirely. Again, only a flaw if your personal preference is against it.

I can get behind you on further limiting pick ups but not necessarily for the reasons you've expressed. Do what you want with FA pick ups, it isn't necessarily going to encourage trading. Heavy involvement encourages trading. Limiting pick ups can just as easily encourage less involvement because it can cause disillusionment if there is a lack of solutions to problems. Why engage in the laborious effort of trading if you've already fallen behind due to injuries and you have little way to overcome them? You could just as simply drop your league engagement to a minimum. Maybe that's not what you would do. But it's what people do. I see it all the time.

To me, it sounds like you are arguing from a standpoint where you really can't get much involved and want something where more involvement isn't an advantage. Again, I'd argue that in such a setup you are actually incentivising a lack of involvement, which won't encourage trading. It might help folks with little time on their hands but I don't think it actually addresses any problems. Considering that most of your issues center on the notion that people are streaming but can't actually provide evidence that it's happening leaves me thinking that this problem has already been addressed.

[metaldude26]

This also touches on a good point, which is that I'd bet that very few of the Dobber staff consider the Expert League as "their one big league". And I think that stems from the lack of coverage on the site, which in turn would encourage accountability and increased commitment.

I'm not quite sure why Angus was able to do so much to publicize the league while in the same role as Steve.

Because I'm not Angus.

[metaldude26]

Oh, and one last rant - Yahoo fantasy hockey bites in general. All my other leagues use different sites. My current favorite is cbssports.

Yahoo! is very simple and ubiquitous, which makes it an easy hub to use. CBS requires yearly fees, which just isn't an option.

[metaldude26]

I'm curious why this needs to be someone's baby? We have the organisation to at least get the leagues set up, so really all it needs are committed managers and an agreed structure and settings. Then we can link the leagues and carry on like this season. Given that it's March, I don't see how this can't be looked into so that come next season it'll be ready to go.

Once we have this structure in place, then we/whoever can try to get more publicity (not trying to make it big necessarily, but to increase interest, especially in the entry leagues).

As asked above, what do the Expert managers want for your league? Agree on settings (for the majority) and then see who is interested in returning. Then maybe new writers can join, and if needed, promoted a few from Pro.

It needs to be someone's baby because at least at the Expert level we are dealing with a bunch of folks who never really had much involvement from the get go. Not sure if you've seen it but the writer turnover the past couple of years has been sizeable. So the reason the Expert league was so diminished was because A) it was so last minute and disorganized B) so many new writers didn't really know what the league was all about.

Maybe it doesn't have to be someone's baby but it does require a steadier hand at the wheel than my own. I've already invested more into that league that I have the desire to do.

[RizzeeDizzee]

You already indicated that you didn't really want to jump in but did so as an obligation. I'm not arguing that you are just mailing in your participation. I think people are complex enough to be able to do something to the best of their ability even if they don't particularly want to. And like I said, you don't need an excuse to drop out if this isn't to your liking.

And I really don't think you understand the league at all. There's an 82 games played limit per position. That means "endless" cycling is impossible. There is literally an end to cycling. It comes when you've reached the games played limit. The only time you can get away with cycling is when you have an injury and happened not to change your lineup for a while and thus fell behind on games played. Cycling, schedule planning, these issues aren't real in this league. Not sure how you aren't grasping this.

Weighted scoring is a matter of personal preference. You might be able to argue to me that having something like game-winners or shutouts or shorties but what we've done is grabbed stats that are high event and reasonably projectable. You don't like those that's a personal preference and not an inherent flaw. This is and always has been a rotisserie league that's what people are signing up for. Points only or something weighted, that's another beast entirely. Again, only a flaw if your personal preference is against it.

I can get behind you on further limiting pick ups but not necessarily for the reasons you've expressed. Do what you want with FA pick ups, it isn't necessarily going to encourage trading. Heavy involvement encourages trading. Limiting pick ups can just as easily encourage less involvement because it can cause disillusionment if there is a lack of solutions to problems. Why engage in the laborious effort of trading if you've already fallen behind due to injuries and you have little way to overcome them? You could just as simply drop your league engagement to a minimum. Maybe that's not what you would do. But it's what people do. I see it all the time.

To me, it sounds like you are arguing from a standpoint where you really can't get much involved and want something where more involvement isn't an advantage. Again, I'd argue that in such a setup you are actually incentivising a lack of involvement, which won't encourage trading. It might help folks with little time on their hands but I don't think it actually addresses any problems. Considering that most of your issues center on the notion that people are streaming but can't actually provide evidence that it's happening leaves me thinking that this problem has already been addressed.

Where do I even start....

I didn't do this out of "obligation" - that would imply I had no choice. If you call being loyal to the site and wanting to help promote it by my participation and do what I can to prevent the league from imploding due to lack of participation, then you and I have different viewpoints on what that word means.

And you say I don't understand the league?! That's just wrong. Newsflash - in doing fantasy hockey for 20 years I've previously been in leagues with nearly every kind of rules permutation, including this type! And on the basis of comparison, I think it's not only less enjoyable but it's happened to correlate with more "fluky" wins than other leagues. As the current leader, you can take that how you want. And again - that's just my observation, but one made from 20+ years and all sorts of variations and permutations.

Scoring categories and weighting are indeed preferences, but I still can't see wisdom in having a guy with 300 SOG, 10G, +20 being perhaps worth as much as someone with 260 SOG, 55G, +15. But hey, it lets you draft guys like Craig Smith and tout their worth endlessly, so I guess it works for you more than me.

What you say in the last two paragraphs is fair and I don't want less involvement. I just think it should be more about thinking and having there be consequences for moves, rather than just having safety nets in the form of so many FA moves and daily settings.

[metaldude26]

Where do I even start....

I didn't do this out of "obligation" - that would imply I had no choice. If you call being loyal to the site and wanting to help promote it by my participation and do what I can to prevent the league from imploding due to lack of participation, then you and I have different viewpoints on what that word means.

And you say I don't understand the league?! That's just wrong. Newsflash - in doing fantasy hockey for 20 years I've previously been in leagues with nearly every kind of rules permutation, including this type! And on the basis of comparison, I think it's not only less enjoyable but it's happened to correlate with more "fluky" wins than other leagues. As the current leader, you can take that how you want. And again - that's just my observation, but one made from 20+ years and all sorts of variations and permutations.

Scoring categories and weighting are indeed preferences, but I still can't see wisdom in having a guy with 300 SOG, 10G, +20 being perhaps worth as much as someone with 260 SOG, 55G, +15. But hey, it lets you draft guys like Craig Smith and tout their worth endlessly, so I guess it works for you more than me.

What you say in the last two paragraphs is fair and I don't want less involvement. I just think it should be more about thinking and having there be consequences for moves, rather than just having safety nets in the form of so many FA moves and daily settings.

If we go by the strict definition of obligation in legal terms then no. However obligation is also synonymous with "sense of duty", which falls under what you've described there.

I noticed you dropped the claims of cycling.

Why would a guy putting up 300 SOG, 10 G, +20 versus someone putting up 260 SOG, 55 G and plus-15 be comparable in value and that be reasonable?

A) I don't believe that to be the case. Looking at statistical scarcity the guy with a huge advantage in goals is going to weigh out WAY higher.

B) Not only that but those are only HALF the stats we score. We also look at assists, hits and PPP. If a guy can put up 55G and not have an advantage in plus/minus or in PPP then maybe the other guy is really good at assists. Or maybe the 55G isn't as good as his fantastic goal total indicates. In any case, your argument doesn't hold much weight since it isn't actually covering the league at hand.

C) These are just numbers. Projectable ones. We could be scoring beard length for all I care, as long as it's measurable and projectable. It's fantasy hockey. What's important is understanding the stats and figuring out how to score the most across those stats.

Still hung up on Craig Smith, eh? He could work for you too. He should work for everyone. He's only in the top-40 for goals and 11th in SOG.

You want there to be consequences for moves but what about the consequences for not allowing moves? Again, you don't put things in place to allow for simple solutions to problems like injuries or players slumping then you get LESS involvement. Not more. I'm all for leagues where you just draft and then it's done. Those are fun. That's not what this league has ever been about.

[RizzeeDizzee]

If we go by the strict definition of obligation in legal terms then no. However obligation is also synonymous with "sense of duty", which falls under what you've described there.

I noticed you dropped the claims of cycling.

Why would a guy putting up 300 SOG, 10 G, +20 versus someone putting up 260 SOG, 55 G and plus-15 be comparable in value and that be reasonable?

A) I don't believe that to be the case. Looking at statistical scarcity the guy with a huge advantage in goals is going to weigh out WAY higher.

B) Not only that but those are only HALF the stats we score. We also look at assists, hits and PPP. If a guy can put up 55G and not have an advantage in plus/minus or in PPP then maybe the other guy is really good at assists. Or maybe the 55G isn't as good as his fantastic goal total indicates. In any case, your argument doesn't hold much weight since it isn't actually covering the league at hand.

C) These are just numbers. Projectable ones. We could be scoring beard length for all I care, as long as it's measurable and projectable. It's fantasy hockey. What's important is understanding the stats and figuring out how to score the most across those stats.

Still hung up on Craig Smith, eh? He could work for you too. He should work for everyone. He's only in the top-40 for goals and 11th in SOG.

You want there to be consequences for moves but what about the consequences for not allowing moves? Again, you don't put things in place to allow for simple solutions to problems like injuries or players slumping then you get LESS involvement. Not more. I'm all for leagues where you just draft and then it's done. Those are fun. That's not what this league has ever been about.

Of course my numerical comparison was hyperbolic and oversimplified. And while certainly a truly exception fantasy hockey player has to be able to adapt to whatever the rules are, I still think that a fantasy hockey league where SOG, Goals, Assists, and +/- are all on equal footing as categories is not in keeping with what most picture from a well structured league.

I didn't drop cycling - it was part of my safety net comment. Plus, what good is it to preach upon, for lack of a better term, deaf ears?

Maybe the answer is to have Dobber earmark some site funds for the winner and/or for whomever is tasked with "championing" the league via columns and the like? Otherwise, I see the number of site writers who participate dwindling by the year, including - like it or not - some for the very same reasons I'm articulating.

[metaldude26]

Of course my numerical comparison was hyperbolic and oversimplified. And while certainly a truly exception fantasy hockey player has to be able to adapt to whatever the rules are, I still think that a fantasy hockey league where SOG, Goals, Assists, and +/- are all on equal footing as categories is not in keeping with what most picture from a well structured league.

I didn't drop cycling - it was part of my safety net comment. Plus, what good is it to preach upon, for lack of a better term, deaf ears?

Maybe the answer is to have Dobber earmark some site funds for the winner and/or for whomever is tasked with "championing" the league via columns and the like? Otherwise, I see the number of site writers who participate dwindling by the year, including - like it or not - some for the very same reasons I'm articulating.

What's the point of offering hyperbolic and oversimplified comparisons versus sensible and factual ones?

I think this all comes down to your own personal preferences not being met by this league, which is fine but doesn't mean the setup is wrong, just your understanding/expectations. Has the fact that you are the only one calling out cycling and the scoring system not occurred to you?

[metaldude26]

Also, deaf ears? How is asking you to point out actual evidence deaf ears?

[RizzeeDizzee]

What's the point of offering hyperbolic and oversimplified comparisons versus sensible and factual ones?

I think this all comes down to your own personal preferences not being met by this league, which is fine but doesn't mean the setup is wrong, just your understanding/expectations. Has the fact that you are the only one calling out cycling and the scoring system not occurred to you?

Are you forgetting the other participant who echoed my sentiments earlier ITT (see post #14), and the other five who "voted with their feet" by opting not to join again this season? I have strong feelings that I'm not afraid to express, but to label them as being only my own is to deny reality.

[RizzeeDizzee]

Also, deaf ears? How is asking you to point out actual evidence deaf ears?

I have pointed out actual evidence - apathy and departures leading to the Experts league teetering on the edge of disappearing. You sound like the Radio Shack CEO, wondering what's wrong with the business plan. Gee - how about you look at lack of customers for starters?!

[MXHockey]

What's the point of offering hyperbolic and oversimplified comparisons versus sensible and factual ones?

I think this all comes down to your own personal preferences not being met by this league, which is fine but doesn't mean the setup is wrong, just your understanding/expectations. Has the fact that you are the only one calling out cycling and the scoring system not occurred to you?

I dropped out as a writer months ago due to being too busy, which was the same rationale for not logging into the experts league since December to check the standings or make any moves. My opinion should mean little as I won't be involved next year but it's interesting that this discussion started the day I checked in on the Experts League.

MD - you seem to be taking Rizz's feedback a bit personally here, maybe because you are the commish and decided on the settings, which obviously you favor. I don't think anyone is suggesting the time you put into organizing the league this year is not appreciated.

In saying that, I agree with Rizz to an extent. Even though his example was 'hyperbolic', his argument made sense. You have 3rd liners who are equal in value to top line players with the set up being how it is. In regards to transactions, there are going to be tons of injuries - meaning there will be cycling, 25 moves is a lot. Also, trades barely happen in leagues like this. It's a free one-year league, there isn't much incentive for guys to get that involved in 'trade discussion' if their team is out of it by the half way point. It's not like guys are making trades to build for next year or to get draft picks for the following year. Trading and one-year leagues, especially with no money involved = blah. Great draft + Few Injuries + Most Active = winner, usually.

As for the yahoo/CBS argument - yahoo is atrocious. Would it really be a big ask for Dobber's site to pony up $100/year to host the league on a better site with settings that are more flexible. Seriously, like Rizz stated, you guys put in 10 hours/week writing etc for free - or for a token stipend when writing for the guide. Is $100 that much to ask for here.....

The reason guys are not chiming in, is because this league (even if it is the 'Experts League') is priority 138 in their lives, and like Rizz said it's not a "main league" for people. Everyone here had their 'main leagues' long before joining this site in any capacity. I'm in four money leagues, and play DFS from time to time - that will always take priority over a one year league like this. Rizz's argument in that respect makes sense.

And to suggest Rizz is 'making excuses' or 'bowing out' is beyond ridiculous. It would be like him saying you're not flexible and the settings need to be your way with no input or feedback from anyone, just because "you're running the league". Seriously, just take his posts as feedback rather than getting so defensive man.

Anyway - I hope you guys figure it out, and good luck next year, and again a genuine thank you MD for organizing this year - as it is a lot of work and I think all 11 guys do appreciate the time you put in.

[ericdaoust]

I have pointed out actual evidence - apathy and departures leading to the Experts league teetering on the edge of disappearing. You sound like the Radio Shack CEO, wondering what's wrong with the business plan. Gee - how about you look at lack of customers for starters?!

I would say more damage was done in past years with the weekly deadlines and waiver budget but that's just me. This year's format has actually been fun to work with and IMO has potential if we can drive up the hype/commitment to being more than a league slapped together at the last second.

[metaldude26]

Are you forgetting the other participant who echoed my sentiments earlier ITT (see post #14), and the other five who "voted with their feet" by opting not to join again this season? I have strong feelings that I'm not afraid to express, but to label them as being only my own is to deny reality.

You do realize that most of the people who left the league are those who left the site entirely, took a step back from fantasy hockey, right? Not a league specific issue. A fantasy hockey/site participation issue.

No one has agreed with you on the cycling issue, which is the one I am specifically asking you to provide evidence of.

[metaldude26]

I have pointed out actual evidence - apathy and departures leading to the Experts league teetering on the edge of disappearing. You sound like the Radio Shack CEO, wondering what's wrong with the business plan. Gee - how about you look at lack of customers for starters?!

Again, deaf ears/evidence argument here is about the cycling thing, which you still haven't provided evidence of.

People leaving, yeah that's evidence that something was flawed about the league, possibly. But I made some pretty stern changes to fix those.