Dobber leagues - matched settings from next year?

[horrorfan]

As the Dobber leagues (Expert, Pro, Entry) are still going and intended to still be connected, should there be a discussion on whether the settings amongst all leagues are the same? I'm pretty sure that Pro and Entry leagues are the same (or very similar) e.g. weekly lineups, FAAB, but the Expert league was changed to Daily.

I'm under the assumption that at least the Pro winner will (should) be invited up to the Expert league season as he's earned it. Given this, it would make the most sense that the settings are the same throughout.

What are everyone's thoughts?

[MarmotKing]

I'm not in any of those leagues, but if you can go up a division as you win, then I believe the settings should be the same throughout the leagues.

[ccsitdown]

I'm adaptable, I think half the fun of joining a new league/pool is having to figure out it's particular system.

[austeane]

For an expert's league, I like having daily roster settings. Especially with Yahoo's "auto-start", it takes very little time to set each day and managing max-GP adds another element of strategy.

Also, in an expert's league, I think it makes sense to have immediate but limited pickups as opposed to FAAB. Sure, if you aren't paying attention, you might miss a guy, but with limited pickups it is an interesting bit of game theory as far as how long you leave a Hammond/Lee on the wire.

While I agree that it makes sense to have consistent settings, I don't know that either set of leagues will want to change.

[horrorfan]

I'm not in any of those leagues, but if you can go up a division as you win, then I believe the settings should be the same throughout the leagues.

Thanks for the comment even if you aren't in the leagues. As mentioned I agree with this suggestion given that the leagues are meant to be linked; essentially it's one big league with divisions. I don't think they should have different settings.

I'm adaptable, I think half the fun of joining a new league/pool is having to figure out it's particular system.

I'm with you on that. I enjoy the fun of new leagues with different settings, for sure. My reasoning is as above, as these leagues are joined, they should be same, in my opinion. But given that you may get a shot at joining the Expert league at some point (given your position), it's interesting to hear your point of view, thanks. I wonder if others feel the same e.g. temek who's leading our league.

For an expert's league, I like having daily roster settings. Especially with Yahoo's "auto-start", it takes very little time to set each day and managing max-GP adds another element of strategy.

Also, in an expert's league, I think it makes sense to have immediate but limited pickups as opposed to FAAB. Sure, if you aren't paying attention, you might miss a guy, but with limited pickups it is an interesting bit of game theory as far as how long you leave a Hammond/Lee on the wire.

While I agree that it makes sense to have consistent settings, I don't know that either set of leagues will want to change.

I think it all started weekly due to Dobber's time constraints and most were happy to go with it. I think the Expert changing it to daily was the first time it has been altered. Also the Expert didn't invite anyone up, which I felt they should have, since the leagues should be joined.

I guess that is the greater point - do people still want complete linkage between divisions. Do the Expert league managers want that? If there is agreement for linkage and consistency, there should be a consensus between them all. I like Daily leagues (that's all I play other than the Dobber one - I'm in Pro), but given the intended structure, I would prefer some consistency.

[horrorfan]

Any further thoughts on this?

[RizzeeDizzee]

I'm not speaking for others in the Experts league; however, I'd prefer very limited pick-ups since otherwise dice rolling is rewarded, and I'd definitely not want FAAB. And daily roster setting allows folks to game the system if they have more time on their hands. Instead, you should be able to reserve a guy whenever you want; however, when you do, he has to stay reserved for a week.

Also, I think the Experts League should be allowed to exist in its own universe - one which has utilitarian rules for those who opt to participate. Otherwise, you get a smaller league (it was a battle to even get 11 teams this year) with less focused owners, which is no fun for those who've worked hard to climb through the ranks to get there.

[horrorfan]

I'm not speaking for others in the Experts league; however, I'd prefer very limited pick-ups since otherwise dice rolling is rewarded, and I'd definitely not want FAAB. And daily roster setting allows folks to game the system if they have more time on their hands. Instead, you should be able to reserve a guy whenever you want; however, when you do, he has to stay reserved for a week.

Also, I think the Experts League should be allowed to exist in its own universe - one which has utilitarian rules for those who opt to participate. Otherwise, you get a smaller league (it was a battle to even get 11 teams this year) with less focused owners, which is no fun for those who've worked hard to climb through the ranks to get there.

Regarding the bolded, I strongly disagree. They've always been linked until recently (when Dobber left), which has caused (likely due to organisation) for things to be sorted a bit more last minute and thus caused this linkage to bend a bit. If someone wins the Pro (or is even runner up), then to ensure better numbers in the Expert you don't have to relegate. If you struggled for numbers this season, why wasn't more (any?) invited up?

Also, given the link, if the Pro/Entry settings are changed to suit all, that's fine. The purpose of this thread was not to debate the actual settings, but to find out if all the leagues should be the same. I say yes, otherwise what's the point of having the Dobber tiered system?

However, if the Expert league wants to be separate and determine its own settings and not invite the Pro winner (which I think happened this year - please correct me if I'm wrong), then perhaps it should be separated from the tiered system altogether.

You could have a Writers league separate from the Tiered system, as I would imagine those working their way up the ranks would be interested in playing against the best, who also made their way up the ranks. I'd bet that the Pro (likely) winner this year would be up for the task to challenge for the Expert title next year, no question. In fact, I would even suggest he'd be one of the favourites.

[RizzeeDizzee]

Regarding the bolded, I strongly disagree. They've always been linked until recently (when Dobber left), which has caused (likely due to organisation) for things to be sorted a bit more last minute and thus caused this linkage to bend a bit. If someone wins the Pro (or is even runner up), then to ensure better numbers in the Expert you don't have to relegate. If you struggled for numbers this season, why wasn't more (any?) invited up?

Also, given the link, if the Pro/Entry settings are changed to suit all, that's fine. The purpose of this thread was not to debate the actual settings, but to find out if all the leagues should be the same. I say yes, otherwise what's the point of having the Dobber tiered system?

However, if the Expert league wants to be separate and determine its own settings and not invite the Pro winner (which I think happened this year - please correct me if I'm wrong), then perhaps it should be separated from the tiered system altogether.

You could have a Writers league separate from the Tiered system, as I would imagine those working their way up the ranks would be interested in playing against the best, who also made their way up the ranks. I'd bet that the Pro (likely) winner this year would be up for the task to challenge for the Expert title next year, no question. In fact, I would even suggest he'd be one of the favourites.

But what good is insisting upon the Expert settings being the same as those of the other leagues if the net effect is causing "experts" to flee from the league en masse? Case in point - going from 16 teams two seasons ago to 11 this season. I can't speak to the reason(s) why some departed; however, there was a lot of grousing in 2013-14 about the settings. And I was set to quit as well due to the settings, but ended up joining because I wanted to help bolster the number of teams and because at least FAAB was abandoned. But even with the changes the league rules/settings are still such that I just cannot stay interested, and that's despite having been in the top five since the all-star break. Just sayin'.......

[metaldude26]

The whole tiered system has kind of fallen apart due to lack of management from on high. It was Dobber's thing but then as time got tight he passed it off to Angus but Angus has moved on and it's all sort of gotten discombobulated. I took the reins of the Experts league but under the premise that the league would be run the way I want so I eliminated a lot of the aspects that made it dissatisfying for me in the past. If I'm running the Experts league it will continue to run as I see fit. If the other leagues want to fall in under that banner then that's cool.

As for promoting individuals. I'm all for it but someone is going to have to contact me with the winners and their information.

[horrorfan]

But what good is insisting upon the Expert settings being the same as those of the other leagues if the net effect is causing "experts" to flee from the league en masse? Case in point - going from 16 teams two seasons ago to 11 this season. I can't speak to the reason(s) why some departed; however, there was a lot of grousing in 2013-14 about the settings. And I was set to quit as well due to the settings, but ended up joining because I wanted to help bolster the number of teams and because at least FAAB was abandoned. But even with the changes the league rules/settings are still such that I just cannot stay interested, and that's despite having been in the top five since the all-star break. Just sayin'.......

Yeah I'm not sure either why some of your group lost interest. Part of it must be due to lack of management as MD states, but perhaps people were getting bored of it or had other personal reasons. For the settings themselves, I'd be happy to go more similar to yours for the other leagues but I guess that needs cooperation from each division, and of course, management. Just curious, why are the current settings not much interest to you? Aren't they similar to most other leagues? Or is it more just another league that doesn't interest you as much?

The whole tiered system has kind of fallen apart due to lack of management from on high. It was Dobber's thing but then as time got tight he passed it off to Angus but Angus has moved on and it's all sort of gotten discombobulated. I took the reins of the Experts league but under the premise that the league would be run the way I want so I eliminated a lot of the aspects that made it dissatisfying for me in the past. If I'm running the Experts league it will continue to run as I see fit. If the other leagues want to fall in under that banner then that's cool.

As for promoting individuals. I'm all for it but someone is going to have to contact me with the winners and their information.

Yeah I guess when you don't have one person overseeing the entire system then it's difficult to keep things consistent. And if you don't have someone who is interested or has the time to manage it all (or at least coordinate and delegate) then it's hard for that interest to be maintained. I think the way it happened is that you took over the Experts and Pengwin took over the others but there wasn't any coordination between you two? (not sure, just guessing) Perhaps if there was an agreement on the settings in advance then perhaps this tier system can become better joined. As for knowing the winners, I figure that's easy enough to find, especially as each division has its own thread. I can tell you it's likely that temek will win the Pro league. Assuming he does, he's definitely earned a shot with the Experts.

[RizzeeDizzee]

To me, an expert league should be one which put the most value in drafting and using a limited number of moves and pick-ups. After all, that's the way real hockey works. But right now you can put guys into and out of the line-up at will, and the number of pick-ups is outrageously high. The end result is although there is skill involved, it also has devolved into dart throwing with the pick-ups and schedule gaming with the daily moves. Neither of those things are my cup of tea, and, to reiterate, they're also not what I see as reflective of true fantasy hockey expertise.

[metaldude26]

To me, an expert league should be one which put the most value in drafting and using a limited number of moves and pick-ups. After all, that's the way real hockey works. But right now you can put guys into and out of the line-up at will, and the number of pick-ups is outrageously high. The end result is although there is skill involved, it also has devolved into dart throwing with the pick-ups and schedule gaming with the daily moves. Neither of those things are my cup of tea, and, to reiterate, they're also not what I see as reflective of true fantasy hockey expertise.

You don't feel that the changes this year have addressed that? 82 games played limit. 25 moves. I'm leading having made just eight moves all year two of which were yesterday. Basically just replacing guys lost for the year.

[MXHockey]

To me, an expert league should be one which put the most value in drafting and using a limited number of moves and pick-ups. After all, that's the way real hockey works. But right now you can put guys into and out of the line-up at will, and the number of pick-ups is outrageously high. The end result is although there is skill involved, it also has devolved into dart throwing with the pick-ups and schedule gaming with the daily moves. Neither of those things are my cup of tea, and, to reiterate, they're also not what I see as reflective of true fantasy hockey expertise.

Well said. This is pretty much my feeling as well.

Horrorfan - You seem really keen, so if you want a shot at the Experts League, you are welcome to take over my team for the rest of the year. Life has been hectic, and I just logged in for the first time since December - and it looks like my team is somehow 7th out of the 11 teams. I'm guessing some other guys have lost interest or else my team would be 11th by now. With some time invested, there's a chance you could make it a top five team. Maybe shoot MD a message and he can take care of the admin piece so you can take over my team.

Kudos to anyone who runs one of these leagues, or a tier system as a whole. It's a lot of work. Cheers.

[RizzeeDizzee]

You don't feel that the changes this year have addressed that? 82 games played limit. 25 moves. I'm leading having made just eight moves all year two of which were yesterday. Basically just replacing guys lost for the year.

The league is better this year, but that's more a reflection of how bad things were in 2013-14. Plus, we went from 16 eager teams in 2013-14 to 11 this season, and it was only 11 because a couple of guys like me wanted to do good for the site and decided to stay involved despite not liking the set-up. I think you'd be hard pressed to get 8 for next season if all rules/scoring/categories were to remain the same.

Sure - maybe the leader hasn't gamed the system with FA pick-ups and crazy line-up shuffling, but others certainly have. I just don't have the time and energy, and I think the ability to do those things gives GMs a means to improve their teams based not on expertise, but on throwing darts and logging in frequently.

Plus, the lack of coverage of the league on the main site makes me wonder what purpose it actually serves at this point.